Home forum Help Search Login Register

Site Sections

User Info

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 14, 2021, 10:37:50 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent Topics

Site Tips

Our site is made by the fans for the fans. Support the Midnight community and register yourself today.
Pages: [1]
Send this topic Print
Author Topic: Rapid Strike, how do you balance it ?  (Read 8204 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Kuenor
Heepa-Heepa


Spell Energy / Taint +0/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 10



« on: December 06, 2006, 07:47:52 AM »

Hello everybody,

I've got a dorn defender in my group that took the rapid strike ability as Tier 2 ability. He is level 8 now.
After a few session, it appears to me and my players totally unbalanced. He as something like 10 stunning fist use a day, so that make 10 more attack per attack with no drawback. We tend to have very violent but short fight so he basically always have one more attack than normal. He is already a very good fighter but that makes him godly.
I've looked at the tier 3 talents and they all seemed less powerful than this one.

Did I miss something, is there something in the erratta somewhere ? How do you mange this ?

I've discussed this with my player and he has reluctantly agreed that it was overpowered the way we play it and he is changing is ability choice to go for Retaliatory Strike instead.

But I really feel like I've missed something here. Any help guys ? Smiley

Kuenor
Logged
Glacialis
Moderator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +6/-3
Gender: Male
Posts: 300



« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2006, 08:44:42 AM »

Stunning Fist by itself can turn a fight around, especially if you allow Monk-like feats that increase its DC. An extra attack? Meh, might miss. If he's hitting every time, I have to wonder what you're throwing against them?

Since it's a Defender, using armor as damage reduction per Unearthed Arcana (available on d20srd.org under Variants -> Adventuring) might not help make it more difficult for him -- but it will make the rest of the party much more cautious and give them a little added benefit to wearing armor.
Logged
Kuenor
Heepa-Heepa


Spell Energy / Taint +0/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 10



« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2006, 09:28:16 AM »

It's not really the point of him hitting everytime, but he gets a free extra attacks at max bonus which is like 14 at level 8 (BAB + STR + WP + precise strike + +1 item). So he tends to land that blow most of the time. My problem is that this ability is not on par with the other one in the tree, and I don't understand why.
He's using his two hands, so he gets four attacks per round at 14/12/12/7 at level 8.  That's way more than the wildlander in the group and I'm not even talking of the channeller/warrior.

As for using armor for damage reduction, that won't change much, since most of them are lightly armored anyway.
Logged
Bleak Knight
Global Moderator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +13/-7
Gender: Male
Posts: 571


AKA Draug


« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2006, 09:42:38 AM »

Doesn't Rapid Strike infer a -2 penalty?

Aside from that, I've always considered the 2nd edition defender overpowered. I'm glad someone can back me up on that now. Perhaps one could modify the ability to infer a -2 AC penalty as well, reflecting the character's total dedication to offence when using the ability?
Logged
Glacialis
Moderator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +6/-3
Gender: Male
Posts: 300



« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2006, 09:49:40 AM »

What's WP? And to my knowledge, Precise Strike does nothing to increase your chances of hitting, just punching (ha!) through damage reduction. I take it he also has Two Weapon Fighting? d20 TWF is pretty unbalanced, but we knew that already. Wink As to AaDR, Heck even leather armor grants DR 1/- in that system.

What would you say to his combat ability if he didn't have TWF? Does anyone else in the group have it?

I'm trying to understand how he gets 14/12/12/7. Assuming 12 is his normal attack, Rapid Strike would give him one attack at 14, and TWF gives another at 12. 2nd BAB would be 7.

All this sound right? If he's a 20 Str Dorn, then I now have a preview of what my party's Defender is going to look like at 8th level. Cool

If the ability was allowed only during a full attack, meaning you can't do move attack attack, it might tone it down a little. AC penalty as Bleak suggested possibly as well.

Fighter with full access to Fighter equipment vs Defender. I don't know what the outcome might be.
Logged
Nifelhein
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +22/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,118


Whisper's Will


« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2006, 10:51:13 AM »

Okay, so let us sort this out because it is looking a little messy to me. First of all he should have 11 stunning fist uses a day, that one ability, if he is not using already is being overlooked, and it shouldn't, specially when he can make a full attack and use stunning fist in one of them... hehehehe.

Anyway, he must use one point in a given round to make an extra attack, his Base Attack is 8, add strength and the +1 item (I am also in the what WP means team here) e would have a +5 modifier for strength (or a +4 if Wp was actually meant to be WF, weapon focus). Totals 14, i ill assume that is the attack total for a single unarmed strike from that defender from now on.

Now you said he uses two fists, so that give him penalties, with TWF (two weapon fighting) that comes down to +12/+12 but he must make a full attack to get that, plus he looses the same 2 at his secondary attack, so he now has the following attack routine: +12/+12/+7, fine so far, thank god he does not have flurry attack hehehe.

So he then uses rapid strike, which grants him another attack with his primary hand, at the same bonus of that hand, of course, and since the ability makes no special mention I will take it can only be used when you make a full attack, I know you guys haven't assumed that but to make more than one attack you must always take the full attack action, which is a full round, abilities that somehow bypass this specficaly state that, like multishot, since the ability does not state it is not a full round to use more than one attack and it works much like haste does, i will require a full attack here, implying in D20 is not enough, it must state.

So whenever he does not move more than 5ft. this defender can make the following attack routine: +12/+12/+12/+7 (first attack, off hand attack, precise strike attack, secondary bab attack). The TWF penalties apply to all attacks made in the round, regardless of when, this includes AoO, mind you. he hurts well enough whenever he hits, he may use one stunning fist in one of the high bonus attacks too and whenever he hits he ignores 3 points of damage reduction and deals 2d6 damage plus strength bonus (if masterful strike applies).

if you followed me through this i doubt he is truly broken, sure he can dedal a good damage and attack a good amount of times, but that is what this one dedfender does well, throw him into a grapple and he will probably be screwed, a fighter could easily match him in raw power, but some work is necessary, sicen feats don't come optimized anyway, a rogue deals a good deal fo damage as well in this level, channelers are abel to cast two 8d6 fireball or lightning bolts if they want, plus a magic missile.

if you want to know where the problem lies that is allowing the use of rapid strike without a full attack, also, if you want to make the defender less powerful restrict stunning fist uses to one per round, regardless of how it is used, so he either stuns, gets and get extra move or get an extra attack (using his stun here), not all three (Picture this, he could Attack four times, stun an enemy and stil drink a potion or stand up from prone or pick an item up or even load a crossbow...)

Now the defender is very powerful, that much i already knew, but it is not broken at all, else I would have seen one by now, none have looked twice at him, besides that, he ahs a specific niche to fill and that is to fight armored humanoid enemies, against enemies with a good number of attacks or powerful ones in their routine he wil have a hard time living, not only that, against large sized opponents he considerably looses power, so an oruk would get a lot of advantage, but a troll or even an ogre would get a good shaft.

The key thing is , if he kills many an attacks a lot, put many opponents, weak ones, making him waste attacks on those and so letting the others in the group get some fun, the same had to be done whenever a monk was around too. And Chris:

Fighter with full access to Fighter equipment vs Defender. I don't know what the outcome might be.

That can be done, Shadow Pits, you and Bleak, you make the defender, bleak the fighter, core rules plus Midnight supplements, point buy standard at character creation, I would say 12th level for the greater weapon specialization, but  think the fighter will be squished. Bleak, the fighter can be orc or oruk (level adjustment there), shadow aligned is your best bet. I DM, is that okay for you guys?
Logged

"We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects."
 - Attributed to Herman Melville.
Kuenor
Heepa-Heepa


Spell Energy / Taint +0/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 10



« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2006, 11:13:57 AM »

Ok first of all I meant WF not WP of course. If I remember correctly the erratta changes the way precise strike works completely, I'm not sure if it adds attack or damage though. I'll check that out when I get back home.

Ok back to rapid strike :

   From darkness fall :
      Once per round the defender may make an extra attack with his primary weapon at his highest attack bonus, either before or after his regular actions.

So from this, there is no mention of full attack. You can attack move and attack. Damn you can even charge and then attack. And it is at his highest attack bonus, meaning for me no -2 penalty from dual wielding. You can do really funny thing like attack and flee or full run and attack.

But the things that I don't get is that this is a tier 2 talent. Tier 3 talent (which should be more powerful) gives you an extra attack when somebody misses you (Counterattack) or hit an ally (Retaliatory Strike). And you still use one stunning fist ability and it's counting against your max number of AoO.

Rapid Strike is clearly better than those two and is Tier 2. Can somebody explain this to me ?

But I'd like to see the defender/fighter match. My bets are clearly on the defender.
And don't worry I get many ways to put him down (I finally instilled the fear of legates in them, mouhahaha !)
Logged
Nifelhein
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +22/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,118


Whisper's Will


« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2006, 12:44:17 PM »

Kuenor,

The errata I have seen does not touch  rapid strike, just speed training, clearly stating that it dpes not allow one to move father than 5ft. when making a full attack. What adds to damage os masterful strike, which i already counted in as a +1d6 there, plus precise ignoring damage reduction.

I know the ability does not state it, but neither it says clearly that it is an exception to the rules for making multiple attacks per round. Anyway I am pretty certain Rob addressed this on the old forums FAQ sticky (and also touched this ability and TWF being used together) stating the ability works like this: spend a stunning fist use, msut make a normal attack during the round, the rapid strike extra attack comes either first or last in the round (not accounting special actions like speed training).

If you think it is broken, I would try making it require a full attack to be used, this would surely reduce its power and not be so hard to track at all, plus sidee is your player still gets to use the ability
Logged
Bleak Knight
Global Moderator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +13/-7
Gender: Male
Posts: 571


AKA Draug


« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2006, 02:48:48 PM »

Quote
That can be done, Shadow Pits, you and Bleak, you make the defender, bleak the fighter, core rules plus Midnight supplements, point buy standard at character creation, I would say 12th level for the greater weapon specialization, but  think the fighter will be squished. Bleak, the fighter can be orc or oruk (level adjustment there), shadow aligned is your best bet. I DM, is that okay for you guys?
I'm up for it. Flat terrain, or will you be making something nifty?
Logged
Dirigible
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +13/-5
Gender: Male
Posts: 536


Oh, the humanity!


« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2006, 08:25:24 PM »

Quote
sure he can dedal a good damage and attack a good amount of times, but that is what this one dedfender does well, throw him into a grapple and he will probably be screwed

Grapple a defender, Nif?  Roll Eyes Laugh  They're the best wrestlers in MN, what with all their grapple-related abilities.

I disagree with everyone that defends Rapid Strike as is. It horribly overpowered.

I offer the following suggestions on how to re-write it to balance it:
1) Make it cost two Stunning Fist usages to activate. That would at least cut down its frequency a bit.
2) Allow it only once per combat.
3) Take the phrase does not stack with haste, cleave, or other effects that grant additional attacks very, very literally, and rule that you cannot use Rapid Strike on any round in which you make more than one attack. Basically, this would mean that defenders could make two attacks with a standard action (if they spent an SF), instead of one; but still only make the conventional number of attacks with a full attack action.
Logged
Glacialis
Moderator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +6/-3
Gender: Male
Posts: 300



« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2006, 08:31:34 PM »

Good one, Mr. Igible. My game's house rules have just been appended with:

Defender -- Class ability, Rapid Strike: This ability may not be used in conjunction with a full attack.
Logged
Nifelhein
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +22/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,118


Whisper's Will


« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2006, 07:42:35 AM »

Yes, Dirigible, if this defender took those abilties to be faster he does not have all the nifty grapping ones, so that is why. Tongue

And i have a doubt that anyone defended it as it is, we all said we treat it differently than otherwise stated. I think not using rapid strike with full attack is odd myself, but not allowing that and TWF could work well enough already, specialy because TWF does grant an extra attak, making it cost two stunning fists usages seems okay but once per combat will make it nearly worthless, imo.

In all cases Kueonr's fix is nicee too, changing places with it and retaliatory seems a good fix, after all tier 3 is not at all easy or fast to get.
Logged
Todd
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-2
Gender: Male
Posts: 53


We stand together, against the shadow.


WWW
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2006, 08:57:18 AM »

I like Dirigible's fix, its very clean and requires little mucking around with the rules as written.
Logged

I do not love the bright sword for it's sharpness, nor the arrow for it's swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.
J.R.R. Tolkien
Dirigible
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +13/-5
Gender: Male
Posts: 536


Oh, the humanity!


« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2006, 02:10:50 PM »

In case there's any confusion, I intended those three points to each be a separate fix, not to be used all together. I prefer option 3), myself.
Logged
Todd
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-2
Gender: Male
Posts: 53


We stand together, against the shadow.


WWW
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2006, 02:12:54 PM »

Yes, option three is what I was referring to. Good work Dirigible. You get some Spell Energy!
Logged
Dirigible
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +13/-5
Gender: Male
Posts: 536


Oh, the humanity!


« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2006, 03:51:08 PM »

Excellent! One more and I'll be able to cast three fireballs!!!
Logged
Bleak Knight
Global Moderator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +13/-7
Gender: Male
Posts: 571


AKA Draug


« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2006, 10:01:55 AM »

Greater Evocation spells are +2 spell energy. Sucks to be you. Tongue

Fix is good, btw. Smiley
Logged
Nifelhein
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +22/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,118


Whisper's Will


« Reply #17 on: December 11, 2006, 02:45:30 PM »

I'm up for it. Flat terrain, or will you be making something nifty?

Well, we still need someone to take the defender, i am considering a temple of shadow frontal stairway, as the last act of a city and its resistance, between you and the mirror the only thing is now the leader of the orc garrison, the legate has already take a swift flight. I am a little too lazy to make quality maps but I will do some we can use.

So, anyone up to the task? make a level 12 defender with rapid strike? Wink
Logged
Albert
Insurgent Commander
***

Spell Energy / Taint +7/-2
Gender: Male
Posts: 433


From the north


« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2006, 03:00:34 PM »

Quote
Rapid Strike (Requires Speed Training): Once per round the defender may make an extra attack with his primary weapon at his highest attack bonus, either before or after his regular actions. This ability does not stack with haste, Cleave, or other effects that grant additional attacks. Using this ability uses up one of the defender's daily uses of Stunning Fist.
Emphasis, mine.

As I read this, the ability doesn't stack with TWF. So there you have three attacks at a limited amount of turns per day, w/o penalty, or twf for three attacks all the time, with a -2, hardly unbalancing when you can't combine them. Rapid strike should stack with high BAB, but not with TWF.

And just to be precise, unless something specifically states otherwise, you need to make a full attack action to use more than one attack.
However, since rapid strike requires speed training, and speed training gives you an extra move action every turn, the defender can move and full attack.
Logged

"You ever get the feeling that the universe is a vast, impersonal emptiness that exists only to hurt you?"
"Yes, it's how we know the DM is doing his job."
- 8 Bit Theatre
Nifelhein
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +22/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,118


Whisper's Will


« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2006, 04:04:58 PM »

TWf is not an effect, mind you, it is an option, I am pretty certain this was touched before as well. He can't move and full atatck even with rapid strike, check the errata. Wink
Logged
Albert
Insurgent Commander
***

Spell Energy / Taint +7/-2
Gender: Male
Posts: 433


From the north


« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2006, 11:13:26 AM »

Okay, I was wrong. It was speed training that would have made it possible btw, not rapid strike.
Logged
Nifelhein
Administrator
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +22/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,118


Whisper's Will


« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2006, 11:45:27 AM »

But even then, that is what the errata covers, I understood the ability you meant, not the one you said. Wink
Logged
Pages: [1]
Send this topic Print
Against the Shadow  |  Forum  |  Midnight & RPGs  |  GM's Corner (Moderators: Bleak Knight, Glacialis)  |  Topic: Rapid Strike, how do you balance it ?
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
AtS Dark Mercury design by Nifelhein, based on the Mercury theme by Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.099 seconds with 29 queries.
TinyPortal © 2005-2011