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Author Topic: Variant Legates  (Read 28137 times)
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Bleak Knight
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« on: September 20, 2006, 08:41:48 PM »

Ok. So, ever since 1st edition, people have been saying "wouldn't it be cool if the legates had an alternative magic system as well?" "Yeah, that would be awesome".

It's about bloody time.

This stuff ain't finished, but I'm getting close. Toss in your comments, and earn a place among the credits!

EDIT:

Other stuff I'd appreciate, aside from a thorough review of the work I've done: Art. I want bloody art. If anyone has some, gimme! Please! Right now, I hate copyright laws!

EDIT: Version 2.1 is now hosted here.

* Legates v2.1.pdf (402.08 KB - downloaded 385 times.)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2006, 02:37:46 PM by Bleak Knight » Logged
arnon
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« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2006, 01:54:58 AM »

I like both classes. But...

I have a problem with the legates knowing only a limited amount of spells. A cleric of a God should not have to learn the spells of his or her God one by one, but prey for that spell which he wants... perhaps he'll get it, perhaps not. You know I'm in favor of them knowing all their spells and then casting from them spontaneously. If not that, then perhaps to simulate the supplication process some kind of a Devotion check, to see if the legate receives the spell he wants or is ignored by his God? This will give the Legate access to all spells, but will limit their availability somehow.

Soldier Legate: I do not think it should be a core class. All Legates start to train for the Temple, those not fitting for temple are either disposed off or if they have the ability, are sent to war-school after some time studying at the Temple. I do like the abilities they gain... I don't know how this could be simulated... perhaps making this a 15, 17 level class...?

Ohh... Where is the Astirax?

arnon
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Bleak Knight
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« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2006, 08:41:34 AM »

I woke up today, and my first thought was: "Those classes I made yesterday are too powerful".

So, I'm thinking about removing the domain stuff, and instead give them access to all spells. However, my reasoning for their limited spells is that they are only granted divine power. How they shape that power is up to the knowledge and abilities of the individual.

Soldier Legate: There are already PrCs for legates becoming soldier legates. Legate Martial, Sword Brother, and...something in Hand of Shadow. I suppose this could be an easily-accessed class for warrior-types with the Dark Spark feat, but I also think that the filtering process which decides how a specific acolyte should be trained happens before level 1.

The astirax are not there. They can be commanded throug the Mastery of Spirits power though. Perhaps I should include them as a Legate Power/Shadow Trait. Astiraxes are, as far as I see it, not loyal companions though, and I find it more interesting if they are actually independently operating minions of Izrador, as described in one flavour text of MN01.
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« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2006, 03:26:49 PM »

  • I don't like that you've reduce the Fort save; it looks like a change for change's sake, or to justify your creation of a soldier legate class.
  • Speaking of which, shouldn't a soldier legate, in your scheme, just be a multiclassed legate / fighter?
  • I really don't like the changes to skills. Too many class skills, too many points per level. You've given them every class skill they could ever want, for no apparent reason.
  • I like the feel and the theme of the tiered abilities, but some of them are a bit on the powerful side at first glance. Shroud of Fear is like a powerful fear and sanctuary spell rolled together. Veil of Shadow is cool, but too maybe powerful; adding to spell DCs is pretty potent. Maybe make it that the legate can only empower the spells of other legates with this?
  • While I don't like the concept of soldier legates being a separate class, what you've created looks very well balanced. The spellcasting and feats seem well evened-out compared to the regular legate.
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« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2006, 11:09:21 AM »

* Fort save was reduced for two reasons: I see no reason why a priest should be as resistant to pain, sickness and extreme conditions as a people of the wilderness or warriors. It's a spellcasting class, not a combat/survival class. Furthermore, game balance.
* Yes, a soldier legate could easily (and has been, most of the time) as multiclassed legate/fighter. However, I wanted to make the class to see how it turned out. I am thinking about making an easily-obtained PrC instead though.
* Legates should have access to those skills, for obvious reasons. Social skills because they are advisors, schemers and manipulators, knowledge skills and Read/Write because they actually receive formal education. I have never like the fact that legates didn't receive skills that would let them be the schemers they are supposed to be. Also, skill points are fun, and I consider the channeler and defender's reduction of skill points in 2nd ed to be a step in the wrong direction. Still, I suppose it could be reduced to 4.
* Remember that to maintain Shroud of Fear, the legate has to spend a standard action. This prevents him from casting spells. +1 DC for a limited number of rounds is no more powerful than, say, Inspire Fury (+1 init, +1 atk for ALL allies, not just divine spellcasters).
* Thanks. I actually feel hat I went a bit over the top on both classes, though.
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Albert
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« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2006, 08:53:18 AM »

BK going over the top when creatin evil stuff? Hmm, where have I seen that before?


I love the soldier legate, although a tad powerful the class is cool, and the only thing making it a low-prereq PrC would acomplish is stealing a point of BAB from them, making them worse than fighters in all ways (BAB IS KING).

I've wondered why legates got fewer skill points than fighters, that just seems odd to me. So the increase in skills is good, though 6+int might be a bit too much, how about 4+int for bothe legates and soldier legates?
Also why don't soldier legates get spellcraft as a classkill, they are after all spellcasters.

Spellcastingwise the legate has gone from being vastly more powerfull than the average channeler, to slighlty less powerfull, but the fact that he can use his magic without fear of being hunted makes up for this. Also it is fitting, since it gives the shadow a reason to fear channeled magic so much.

The class abilites are numerous and powerfull. Some of them are probably too powerfull, but I don't have the energy to nitpick my way through them. Inspire fury seems a little out of place to me. As does the six domains the legate can attain. You should probably top that of at 4 (2 for soldier legates)  or something, those domain powers can really stack up if you choose wisely.
Also, the magic and travel domains probably aren't very fitting for Legates.


I like the way astiraxes are no longer a class ability, though you should probably mention your thoughts on them in the pdf, to keep people from wondering where they dissapeared to.

Reduced fort for leagates is totally correct in my opinion.



Overall this makes the legate more powerfull and scary. But it also changes his role,
from: ultimate spellcaster who knows nothing else, with a pet spelldraining demon.
To: scary champions of the evil god with tons of dirty tricks.


I like them, but if anything, power them down.


edit: oh, and this warrants a taint cookie.
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« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2006, 09:28:24 AM »

Yay! Taint! Weee!

Thanks for a pretty thorough review, Albert. Now, the response. (Dun-dun-duuu!)

Skill Points: Like I stated above, I always considered it unneccesary gimpage of the channeler to reduce his skill points to 4 + Int. However, I'll take the legate down to 4+ Int, to balance him with channeler skill-wise.

Domains: I'll be removing any text that says they gain the special power of a domain. Instead, they'll be gaining only the spells.
   Magic has been a legate domain since 1st edition, and is not going away. Also, travel should be available for witch hunters and nexus seekers.

Class Abilities: Inspire Fury is intended for those legates who are Voices of Shadow, or otherwise fanatic preachers. Personally, I find the picture of a legate whipping his congregation into a frenzy quite suitable.

Astiraxes: I intended to mention it, but forgot. I will be done. I might also create a few feats for characters desiring to bond with sprits (such as astiraxes).

That should do the trick, yes?
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Albert
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« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2006, 01:41:14 AM »

Half of all the spells in the travel domain involve teleporting, or was this changed when they made the legate in the first place?

edit: You could allow the domain power for the first domain. Hardly unbalancing, but domain powers are cool and often fits very well with character concepts.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2006, 01:43:50 AM by Albert » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2006, 09:40:16 AM »

Hmmmm. I'll have to look into Travel then.

The domain idea has some merit, but I'll have to find a way to balance it.
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« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2006, 11:49:36 AM »

I don't know if I remember it right, but is not the legate granted a astirax when he reaches a certain level, it is not something he asks for, it is just given to him? And while the astirax will do much of what the legate commands, it doesn't have to take orders from him/her?

I like to think of them as watch dogs, not the legates pet. This way the legate is given the means to hunt down witches, but also has something to keep him in line, something to make him remember his place. Seeing how more and more legates turn renegade, I believe the order of shadow would want to keep their priest on a leash. I can't remember where, but I think I have read about a legate being killed by his astirax somewhere, I think that was what inspired this little thought.


If you see it this way, then it shouldn't be an optional class ability.
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« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2006, 03:51:37 PM »

Check out the M2E rules for legates and astiraxes. They're basically a form of familiar.
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« Reply #11 on: October 03, 2006, 01:32:44 AM »

Check out the sidebar text where an astirax betrays his master, now that's how it's supposed to be.

Also for domains some of them are crucial for legate archetypes, the seeker domain power for witch takers, the healing domain power for umbral catholicons, and so on, they deserve to get some domain powers since they are supposed to be better than other legates in these areas, but 6 domain powers is too much.
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« Reply #12 on: October 03, 2006, 02:03:02 PM »

I agree wholeheartedly. But in this case, the astirax cooperates/works against the legate as one character to another, not as a faithful minion such as those from the Leadership feat or class abilities.
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« Reply #13 on: October 04, 2006, 12:46:35 AM »

I agree wholeheartedly. But in this case, the astirax cooperates/works against the legate as one character to another, not as a faithful minion such as those from the Leadership feat or class abilities.

Perhaps then a variant could involve a "standard" legate that would not automatically be given a "faithful" astirax? To clarify, in this view ALL legates would be given astiraxes, but only those with the class ability OR special feat would have a guarantee that their astirax will behave as a faithful minion or a familiar...

Just food for thought.
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« Reply #14 on: October 04, 2006, 08:21:35 AM »

The Mastery of Spirits ability will allow the legate to rebuke or command an astirax, thus gaining a faithful slave on his quest to hunt magic.
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« Reply #15 on: October 04, 2006, 06:39:06 PM »

'Faithful slave'?

Have you read the description of 'command X' recently, Bleak? It is not a very useful method of ensuring long-term, reliable minions.

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« Reply #16 on: October 04, 2006, 08:53:50 PM »

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A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.
"Follow those insurgents, and report their actions back to me" is an order. One standard action, and the creature is on to it for as long as desired. There is, as far as I know, no limited duration or range on Command X, once the creature has been taken control of.
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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2006, 12:07:22 PM »

Well, I disagree with you Bleak, unlike a druid's or wildlander's animal companion i don't see the astirax being loyal and reliable, they are bound to one another, per the class ability description, and the astirax can even turn its link to the legate on or off at will, meaning unlike familiars or animal companions the link between a legate and the astirax is more of convenience than friendship (as an animal companion) or quintessencial (as a familiar).

The description goes further and says the astirax is a servant of Izrador first and then serves a legate, it isn't compelled by any means to obey a legate, but not doing so to act on its own interest instead of the Shadow's may also mean its own end. This is all from the class decription mind you.

Furhtermore, you have introduced an ability for controlling sipirits that has the name of a Channeler ability meant to exorcise them, while there is one that has the same effect on the channeler list too, called Mastery of the Unnatural. But that is a general issue and not a specific problem, you are overlooking the rules that govern this, a rebuked creature remains in that condition for 10 rounds, unless you renew the effect, a commanded udnead is under the mental control of the cleric, but to get that effect the cleric must have at least twice to HD of the undead. A legate never has double of an astirax's HD, meaning he would never command his own, though he could exercise control over a rival's whose level is lower than hi own.

Problems with the introduction of that idea to the class are pretty obvious, specially because the legate might not have many ways of noticing things like this. Antoher thing is that while the idea looks interesting in concept, turning humans and spirits seems out of the scope of what a legate should do, for that kind of thing they have some pretty damn good spells, while not steping into the Spiritual Chaneller's toes.

In the classes you created there are other issues i am not fond of, like the 6th level to learn 3rd level spells, mainly because that would normally happen at 5th level, and I never quite liked the sorcerer on 3.X. The first class gets a lot of feats too, 7 when you compare that to a fighter they get to much, specially because they can also cast spells, wear some armor and have a good selection fo skills, it is overdone.

Your way of doing domain spells make it less interesting, in my opinion, since it is all open from the beggining, unlike the standard where he chooses among few and if he goes to a certain order then gets to change one for a special domain, one he would normally not have access to.

Also, i am not sure i like the bonus to social interactions based on rank inside the Order, it is highly unlikely that the order is lawful enough to support hierarchic boosts like that, sure there are lawful people and an Order in itself requires some kind of lawful organization, but it also encompasses chaotic and neutral legates (on the lawful-chaotic axis). Furthermore you have attached status inside the order with class levels and that is not how I see it working at all, this would not make it possible for a legate to be sent to a backwater village if he is of high enough level, it would encourage system choices over story choics, and I hate things like that.

The new powers make a legate a destroyer of animals and plants, a category which would never be subject to such a thing, they don't get a save and unlike undead, they are commonly found all around the world, master of spirits is fine, to a degree, though I still think the name is off when you already have an ability with that name that works differently.

The other abilities vary from good to nice, but would it be possible to detroy or command a humanoid if he is of high enough level to get that effect? Since he can rebuke one, that woudl kidn of be needed, furthermore I dislike the ability because it encourages magical influence over actual "diplomatic" skills, or just make them too terrifying. Once again the siubject gets no save. The problem I ahve with this is that this is a mechanic madee for the players that may end up being applied to them, and that just wouldn't work for any kind of game I play or with any friend I have.

As others said I don't quite like how the new class gets 6 skills and a damn too good class list, there is just too mcuh in there, and too many skills for a class whose focus supposedly is elsewhere, i know you are all for a lot of skills for everyone, but that just ins't how the system works all around, even in Midnight books. In the end you kind of made a Divine magic Channeler instead of a legate, the ideas are al good but do not actually make them what they are supposed to be, at least not for me.

The Soldier legate is another thing, I first dislike the fact that theya re two separate classes, meaning a very basic division within the Order that just wasn't there until now, then it gets a weird class kill list with more than enough points to get it, over the top saves for a martial type, ince again there is the system over story thing with knighthood and grandmaster, his abilities are much better placed though, and all fit very very well with the theme and what he is all about, but I really think there is a problem with the Shadow Armor, for would using a spear at 10ft still cause damage? How about arrows from afar? supposedly it should be melee and maybe still require the striker to be adjacent to the legate. Drain magic does not give the caster a save, and a touch atatck is much easier to land than an actual attack, as is the case of an astirax.

And now to the other things, the feats are okay, and divine spellcasting is fine, but I don't like how corruption takes place of the Con thing for channelers, rot hat it is actually another system that mirrors the concept of Taint, while we do have we one in the canon, even though it is not quite my thing as is.

It has some good ideas in there, but the way it actually works withi the game seems flawed, and it is missing the actual role they play in the world and to their god. It surely can get better though, and it is a good source for my own thoughts on the issue, as i started debating them on a thread here.

Wink

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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2006, 01:38:25 PM »

Quote
Well, I disagree with you Bleak, unlike a druid's or wildlander's animal companion i don't see the astirax being loyal and reliable...
Neither do I, which is why I removed them as a class ability.

Quote
The description goes further and says the astirax is a servant of Izrador first and then serves a legate, it isn't compelled by any means to obey a legate, but not doing so to act on its own interest instead of the Shadow's may also mean its own end. This is all from the class decription mind you.
Exactly, which is why an astirax is an ally of a legate, not a class ability.

Quote
Furhtermore, you have introduced an ability for controlling sipirits that has the name of a Channeler ability meant to exorcise them, while there is one that has the same effect on the channeler list too, called Mastery of the Unnatural.
Fair enough, I'll change the name.

Quote
But that is a general issue and not a specific problem, you are overlooking the rules that govern this, a rebuked creature remains in that condition for 10 rounds, unless you renew the effect, a commanded udnead is under the mental control of the cleric, but to get that effect the cleric must have at least twice to HD of the undead. A legate never has double of an astirax's HD, meaning he would never command his own, though he could exercise control over a rival's whose level is lower than hi own.
Astirax – 3 HD. Legate level 6 commands him. As for the 10 rounds, that does not apply for commanded creatures, no?

Quote
Problems with the introduction of that idea to the class are pretty obvious, specially because the legate might not have many ways of noticing things like this. Antoher thing is that while the idea looks interesting in concept, turning humans and spirits seems out of the scope of what a legate should do, for that kind of thing they have some pretty damn good spells, while not steping into the Spiritual Chaneller's toes.
Legates binding spirits doesn't suit you? It suits me. As for spells, well, channelers have spells too.

Quote
In the classes you created there are other issues i am not fond of, like the 6th level to learn 3rd level spells, mainly because that would normally happen at 5th level, and I never quite liked the sorcerer on 3.X.
Game Balance (tm). I'll see what I can do though.

Quote
The first class gets a lot of feats too, 7 when you compare that to a fighter they get to much, specially because they can also cast spells, wear some armor and have a good selection fo skills, it is overdone.
Like I've already stated, I think they are a little too powerful, and I'm going to go ahead and agree with you. Still, the channeler gets just as many, and this class is not proficient with armor.

Quote
Your way of doing domain spells make it less interesting, in my opinion, since it is all open from the beggining, unlike the standard where he chooses among few and if he goes to a certain order then gets to change one for a special domain, one he would normally not have access to.
I don't think more options make it less interesting.

Quote
Also, i am not sure i like the bonus to social interactions based on rank inside the Order, it is highly unlikely that the order is lawful enough to support hierarchic boosts like that, sure there are lawful people and an Order in itself requires some kind of lawful organization, but it also encompasses chaotic and neutral legates (on the lawful-chaotic axis).
It's a church. A religious organization. Does the pope carry more sway in the church than your local priest? Yes, he does. Same goes for the Order. No matter your alignment, superiority brings with it respect.
Quote
Furthermore you have attached status inside the order with class levels and that is not how I see it working at all, this would not make it possible for a legate to be sent to a backwater village if he is of high enough level, it would encourage system choices over story choics, and I hate things like that.
Fair enough. This was inspired by the Star Wars d20 jedi knights, and how they all attain certain ranks at certain levels, and also by the requirements to gain positions in the organization of the Order of Shadow, as detailed in M2E.

Quote
The new powers make a legate a destroyer of animals and plants, a category which would never be subject to such a thing, they don't get a save and unlike undead, they are commonly found all around the world, master of spirits is fine, to a degree, though I still think the name is off when you already have an ability with that name that works differently.
You don't see legates as corruptors and destroyers of the natural world? I do. At least some of them. They worship a god who blights the land around him, and taints the very souls of mortals, turning them into black goop (Tain, Allips, Heart of Shadow). Like I said, I'll change the name of the second power.

Quote
The other abilities vary from good to nice, but would it be possible to detroy or command a humanoid if he is of high enough level to get that effect? Since he can rebuke one, that woudl kidn of be needed, furthermore I dislike the ability because it encourages magical influence over actual "diplomatic" skills, or just make them too terrifying. Once again the siubject gets no save. The problem I ahve with this is that this is a mechanic madee for the players that may end up being applied to them, and that just wouldn't work for any kind of game I play or with any friend I have.
No, they cannot be destroyed. At least, that was not the intention. And magic is supposed to be superior to mundane skills. It already is in the social aspect of the game. Charm Person, anyone? No they do not get a save. Characters do not get to roll defense against attacks either. Their “AC” against this “attack” is their HD.

Quote
As others said I don't quite like how the new class gets 6 skills and a damn too good class list, there is just too mcuh in there, and too many skills for a class whose focus supposedly is elsewhere, i know you are all for a lot of skills for everyone, but that just ins't how the system works all around, even in Midnight books. In the end you kind of made a Divine magic Channeler instead of a legate, the ideas are al good but do not actually make them what they are supposed to be, at least not for me.
Did you read the introduction? I said this system was based on the channeled magic system. Also, I enjoy more unity between divine and arcane magic, since I see them as similar, but from different sources. More personal sacrifice, rituals and demon-worshiping than constant divine miracles. I like my legates as dark sorcerors.

Quote
The Soldier legate is another thing, I first dislike the fact that theya re two separate classes, meaning a very basic division within the Order that just wasn't there until now,
Albert recently stated, and I agree: “BAB is KING”. Also, Paladin is a core class in regular D&D. This is his evil counterpart in Midnight.

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then it gets a weird class kill list with more than enough points to get it,
I like skills, and no class in Midnight should have less than 4 + Int modifier
Quote
over the top saves for a martial type,
I am considering reducing Will, but I'm not sure.

Quote
ince again there is the system over story thing with knighthood and grandmaster
Already explained this in your comment concerning legate abilities

Quote
his abilities are much better placed though, and all fit very very well with the theme and what he is all about, but I really think there is a problem with the Shadow Armor, for would using a spear at 10ft still cause damage? How about arrows from afar? supposedly it should be melee and maybe still require the striker to be adjacent to the legate.
Shadow Armor says “in melee”. In melee it is.

Quote
Drain magic does not give the caster a save, and a touch atatck is much easier to land than an actual attack, as is the case of an astirax.
Same ability as an astirax. It sacrifices all the damage of that blow in order to deal damage. Also, touch attacks provoke attacks of opportunity. I suppose it could be changed to require a standard action, though.

Quote
And now to the other things, the feats are okay, and divine spellcasting is fine, but I don't like how corruption takes place of the Con thing for channelers, rot hat it is actually another system that mirrors the concept of Taint, while we do have we one in the canon, even though it is not quite my thing as is.
I was toying with ability drain for legates too, but figured it would be nice with something alternative. It's pretty easy to change it to Con drain though. The taint rules are...wonky at best (gain 1 taint, remove it, turn into an Allip!?) so I went with something else.

Quote
It has some good ideas in there, but the way it actually works withi the game seems flawed, and it is missing the actual role they play in the world and to their god. It surely can get better though, and it is a good source for my own thoughts on the issue, as i started debating them on a thread here.
In my games, legates are evil priests, the spiders in an ancient web, and the puppeteers of Eredane. They are in touch with an evil god, and have access to dark and wondrous powers which can kill, taint and corrupt man and beast alike, and change the land to rot and ash. They are deceivers, schemers, leaders, preachers, and bringers of strife. I tried to encompass all of that in two classes, while also making the legates as diverse as their channeling counterparts.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2006, 01:40:35 PM by Bleak Knight » Logged
Nifelhein
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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2006, 06:23:40 PM »

Well, what can I say, i lvoe this kind of exchange we have here. Grin

Neither do I, which is why I removed them as a class ability.

Exactly, which is why an astirax is an ally of a legate, not a class ability.

Removing them as a class ability has affected their chance of survival in the world around them and agaisnt challenges their masters are facing, it has also taken away the bounding part of their "companionship", where they actually have a kind of link, without it it is actually nearly impossible for an astirax to communicate with a legate, short of spells, which they don't have as many now.

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Fair enough, I'll change the name.

Thought you would, and it makes things less confusing to me, sicne the first thing that came to mind was the channeler's abilities. Wink

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Astirax – 3 HD. Legate level 6 commands him. As for the 10 rounds, that does not apply for commanded creatures, no?

Legates binding spirits doesn't suit you? It suits me. As for spells, well, channelers have spells too.

Game Balance (tm). I'll see what I can do though.

I forgot that without them having some kind of ties to one another the astirax also does not have additional HD, meanig it can easily be turned, but then, it also makes a power of a channeler more easily target a High Legate's astirax, if he has one, sad isn't it? That Sunulael's astirax would actually be turned by a low level party, and i have to say this has just taken my mind to a drift. Sunulael's ASTIRAX.

As to the binding spirits and all, i spoke of the spells one can find on the cleric list and not on the channeler's, they are very god against spirits and already give them an edge against such creatures, they don't get the same spells, and when we talk of legates we should be careful to not overdo it, for nearly everything on control, evil, dominate and the like will fit them, it does not mean they should get it all in more than one way.

Game balance wouldn't be a real issue, they have a lot less spellcasting prowess and very few spells to choose from now, they also don't have armor anymore and have lost a save, lowering the amount of feats would cover things like this too.

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Like I've already stated, I think they are a little too powerful, and I'm going to go ahead and agree with you. Still, the channeler gets just as many, and this class is not proficient with armor.

I don't think more options make it less interesting.

I overlooked the armor thing until after I wrote that, and I couldn't find the placee I wrote about it, my bad. The channeler has less skills in his list, less skill points to apply to them and thematic choices for spells, not to say of the rgeater schools, there isn't anything like that for the legates, at least not right now.

And more options does make it less interesting, not mechanically, but story-wise, as  said a legate couldn't choose haling as his domain, but once he has been named an Outcast and sent to the Umbran Catholicon order, they get to change one fo their usual domains to healing. If he could have healing and be a witch hunter I would consider it less interesting myself. Wink

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It's a church. A religious organization. Does the pope carry more sway in the church than your local priest? Yes, he does. Same goes for the Order. No matter your alignment, superiority brings with it respect. Fair enough. This was inspired by the Star Wars d20 jedi knights, and how they all attain certain ranks at certain levels, and also by the requirements to gain positions in the organization of the Order of Shadow, as detailed in M2E.

But personal power alone won't make you a pope, or a bishop, for that matter, same goes for experience and knowledge, it is much more political than that, and as far as I know the Catholic church is very very lawful, while I don't see the Order of Shadow being as lawful, legates may be lawful as often as chaotic, and neutral is also part of the equation, so I don't thinkw e have a Lawful Church at all.

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You don't see legates as corruptors and destroyers of the natural world? I do. At least some of them. They worship a god who blights the land around him, and taints the very souls of mortals, turning them into black goop (Tain, Allips, Heart of Shadow). Like I said, I'll change the name of the second power.

No, I don't make bad guys who want to destroy the world, unless they wil be goidn somewhere else, they fight for some reason, tehre is no evil for the pure pleasure of being so, even Izrador has motivations to his ow actions, ultimately he cares only about himself, that is what evil is all about in D&D anyway. So legates are not all about destroyign things adn corrupting others, thy get remove disease, heal and protective spells too, so that must also tell us some kind of thing about what they should be mechanic wise, either that or the mechanics should make them fit to destroy and corrupt but not to heal and protect.

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No, they cannot be destroyed. At least, that was not the intention. And magic is supposed to be superior to mundane skills. It already is in the social aspect of the game. Charm Person, anyone? No they do not get a save. Characters do not get to roll defense against attacks either. Their “AC” against this “attack” is their HD.

I wanted to check, the description does not say it can, but it is better to say it can't than leave it out of the text. Magic is always superior to mundane skills, but no player likes to feel they got no chance, that is one of the reasons Charm Person has a save, that was why Harm changed in 3.5, it was originally a touch spell and got no save, check how it is now. Actualy Ac is made in such a way that it is like a take 10 on a defense roll, so your point is a little off, besides that the attack actually has some counterpart to it, it is not meant to work everytime, touch attacks work more foten than they don't.

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Did you read the introduction? I said this system was based on the channeled magic system. Also, I enjoy more unity between divine and arcane magic, since I see them as similar, but from different sources. More personal sacrifice, rituals and demon-worshiping than constant divine miracles. I like my legates as dark sorcerors.

Albert recently stated, and I agree: “BAB is KING”. Also, Paladin is a core class in regular D&D. This is his evil counterpart in Midnight.

Yes I did, I know where it was based on, but then I think we are not here to give only praises and to keep things true to their source, so that is why i keep moving toward something else, currently your legates are just dark sorcerers, but I don't think they should be that at all, that is why I don't share this kind of thought with you. I don't mind a single system for divine and channeled magic at all, but that does not mean they must work the same way but with different lables.

BAB is great, but there are a lot more factors for a class than just mechanical choices, in Midnight that is even more true, so Soldier Legates and Legates as two different classes generates a kind of schism in the training, one that I can't help but dislike, even Soldier legates shoudl have to study and learn to read and write, else they will be just a human orc I throw at my group of adventurers.

And I hated Paladin as a core class, even mroe because the cool abilities that advance with level are... remove disease X/day! Truly, the class is a misfit, and the 15-level one from UA is also a miss. I wouldn't take this kind of mistake into Midnight myself.

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I like skills, and no class in Midnight should have less than 4 + Int modifier

I am considering reducing Will, but I'm not sure.

Already explained this in your comment concerning legate abilities

Shadow Armor says “in melee”. In melee it is.

No class in Midnight has less than 4 skill points except the legates (though  am a little lazy to check that on the book), but their list sucks badly too. The soldier legate list sucks too, much like the fighter's I would never lower skill points below 4, but I would consider expanding a list of the fighter and soldier legate, in this case. See, i am not all for reduction here. Wink

If the temple legate does not get Fortitute the Soldier should not get Will, that is what i think anyway, what is true to one would also be to the other. And to Shadow Armor, i must have overlooked it then, but soudns strange for reach weapons anyway. Check the Fire Shield spell for a good source for this kind of ability. Wink

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Same ability as an astirax. It sacrifices all the damage of that blow in order to deal damage. Also, touch attacks provoke attacks of opportunity. I suppose it could be changed to require a standard action, though.

I was toying with ability drain for legates too, but figured it would be nice with something alternative. It's pretty easy to change it to Con drain though. The taint rules are...wonky at best (gain 1 taint, remove it, turn into an Allip!?) so I went with something else.

Astirax must hit a normal attack, sicne they can't attack as spirits, and that makes a lot more modifiers get into the defense of the subject. And touch attacks do not provoke attack of opportunity by themselves, false, discharging a spell is considered an armed atatck and is made through a touch attack, this kind of ability would be the same to me, I think one of us must be misunderstading the rules here, may be me, but I haven't seen any DM use the rules like that until now. Sacrificing damage is also great when you are high enough level, because spell energy goes just as high, and Con damage can make you dead, besides that, astirax hosts are animals, normally weak and fragile, and they can be kept away with a 1st level ability of the spiritual channeler, a legate with this touch attack would kill any channeler with successive attacks using it.

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In my games, legates are evil priests, the spiders in an ancient web, and the puppeteers of Eredane. They are in touch with an evil god, and have access to dark and wondrous powers which can kill, taint and corrupt man and beast alike, and change the land to rot and ash. They are deceivers, schemers, leaders, preachers, and bringers of strife. I tried to encompass all of that in two classes, while also making the legates as diverse as their channeling counterparts.

We seem to have a different take to what evil means here, and also, what end the legates, and not the shadow, have inwhat they do to the world.
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Bleak Knight
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« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2006, 08:53:19 PM »

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Removing them as a class ability has affected their chance of survival in the world around them and agaisnt challenges their masters are facing, it has also taken away the bounding part of their "companionship", where they actually have a kind of link, without it it is actually nearly impossible for an astirax to communicate with a legate, short of spells, which they don't have as many now.
Did the fact that orcs are not a class ability of the legate ever prevent you from giving legates an orc bodyguard? As for an astirax's advanced abilities, those should be part of its own powers, not those of the legate. I'll see if I can't drum up some rules on Astiraxes, and advancing them in HD.
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I forgot that without them having some kind of ties to one another the astirax also does not have additional HD, meanig it can easily be turned, but then, it also makes a power of a channeler more easily target a High Legate's astirax, if he has one, sad isn't it? That Sunulael's astirax would actually be turned by a low level party, and i have to say this has just taken my mind to a drift. Sunulael's ASTIRAX.
A higher-level legate could command a higher-level Astirax. Also, with some of the tier 2 powers, he could increase his effective class level, commanding even higher HD Astriaxes. As for Sunulael's Astirax well, I was surprised not to find it in Legends.

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As to the binding spirits and all, i spoke of the spells one can find on the cleric list and not on the channeler's, they are very god against spirits and already give them an edge against such creatures, they don't get the same spells, and when we talk of legates we should be careful to not overdo it, for nearly everything on control, evil, dominate and the like will fit them, it does not mean they should get it all in more than one way.
True, but most of those spells are of a relatively high level, severely limiting the abilities of lower-level legates to control outsiders.

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Game balance wouldn't be a real issue, they have a lot less spellcasting prowess and very few spells to choose from now, they also don't have armor anymore and have lost a save, lowering the amount of feats would cover things like this too.
I'm thinking about expanding their spell-list.
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I overlooked the armor thing until after I wrote that, and I couldn't find the placee I wrote about it, my bad. The channeler has less skills in his list, less skill points to apply to them and thematic choices for spells, not to say of the rgeater schools, there isn't anything like that for the legates, at least not right now.
I was hoping to create thematic choices of spells for legates too, through the domains. Perhaps I should make new legate “schools of magic”. They'll need a different name, though.

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And more options does make it less interesting, not mechanically, but story-wise, as  said a legate couldn't choose haling as his domain, but once he has been named an Outcast and sent to the Umbran Catholicon order, they get to change one fo their usual domains to healing. If he could have healing and be a witch hunter I would consider it less interesting myself.
Righty. Perhaps I'll limit some of the domains. On the other hand, who says a legate with the Healing domain will be accepted anywhere but in the Umbral Catholicon? In some D&D settings, your choice of domains determines what role you play in your church.
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But personal power alone won't make you a pope, or a bishop, for that matter, same goes for experience and knowledge, it is much more political than that, and as far as I know the Catholic church is very very lawful, while I don't see the Order of Shadow being as lawful, legates may be lawful as often as chaotic, and neutral is also part of the equation, so I don't thinkw e have a Lawful Church at all.
I've removed the ranks. Be happy. HAPPY, DAMMIT! Tongue

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No, I don't make bad guys who want to destroy the world, unless they wil be goidn somewhere else, they fight for some reason, tehre is no evil for the pure pleasure of being so, even Izrador has motivations to his ow actions, ultimately he cares only about himself, that is what evil is all about in D&D anyway. So legates are not all about destroyign things adn corrupting others, thy get remove disease, heal and protective spells too, so that must also tell us some kind of thing about what they should be mechanic wise, either that or the mechanics should make them fit to destroy and corrupt but not to heal and protect.
Destroy the world to raise Izrador to the heavens? Destroy land to drive away the channeled magic of Aryth? Destroy life for a god who is death? Corrupt the hearts of men to darkness, and see them slay each other? The list goes on, and destruction is indeed a major part of Izrador's, and therefore his priesthood's, agenda.
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I wanted to check, the description does not say it can, but it is better to say it can't than leave it out of the text. Magic is always superior to mundane skills, but no player likes to feel they got no chance, that is one of the reasons Charm Person has a save, that was why Harm changed in 3.5, it was originally a touch spell and got no save, check how it is now. Actualy Ac is made in such a way that it is like a take 10 on a defense roll, so your point is a little off, besides that the attack actually has some counterpart to it, it is not meant to work everytime, touch attacks work more foten than they don't.
Roger, I'll change drain magic to a normal attack.
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Yes I did, I know where it was based on, but then I think we are not here to give only praises and to keep things true to their source, so that is why i keep moving toward something else, currently your legates are just dark sorcerers, but I don't think they should be that at all, that is why I don't share this kind of thought with you. I don't mind a single system for divine and channeled magic at all, but that does not mean they must work the same way but with different lables.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. “Just dark sorcerers” is exactly what I want. Fits in with great stories of evil priesthoods like those in Conan and Call of Cthulhu.
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BAB is great, but there are a lot more factors for a class than just mechanical choices, in Midnight that is even more true, so Soldier Legates and Legates as two different classes generates a kind of schism in the training, one that I can't help but dislike, even Soldier legates shoudl have to study and learn to read and write, else they will be just a human orc I throw at my group of adventurers.

And I hated Paladin as a core class, even mroe because the cool abilities that advance with level are... remove disease X/day! Truly, the class is a misfit, and the 15-level one from UA is also a miss. I wouldn't take this kind of mistake into Midnight myself.
I'll toss read an write in as a class skill for the Soldier Legate too. However, the two paths are radically different, and represent two very separate parts of the Order of Shadow. Even M2E specifies that soldier legates are a faction apart from the order at large. Sort of like templars and priests (once again using the mideival Catholic church as an example). And before anyone voices it, yes, I know the templars were trained as warrirs first, then chose to become monks.

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No class in Midnight has less than 4 skill points except the legates (though  am a little lazy to check that on the book), but their list sucks badly too. The soldier legate list sucks too, much like the fighter's I would never lower skill points below 4, but I would consider expanding a list of the fighter and soldier legate, in this case. See, i am not all for reduction here.
Core MN legates have 4 + Int SP. If skill lists suck so much, could you please come with a few suggestions on what skills to add and what skills to remove?

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If the temple legate does not get Fortitute the Soldier should not get Will, that is what i think anyway, what is true to one would also be to the other. And to Shadow Armor, i must have overlooked it then, but soudns strange for reach weapons anyway. Check the Fire Shield spell for a good source for this kind of ability.
The energy travels along the haft of the weapon, striking the attacker. As for the Fort/Will thing, roger, and I think I agree.
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Astirax must hit a normal attack, sicne they can't attack as spirits, and that makes a lot more modifiers get into the defense of the subject. And touch attacks do not provoke attack of opportunity by themselves, false, discharging a spell is considered an armed atatck and is made through a touch attack, this kind of ability would be the same to me, I think one of us must be misunderstading the rules here, may be me, but I haven't seen any DM use the rules like that until now. Sacrificing damage is also great when you are high enough level, because spell energy goes just as high, and Con damage can make you dead, besides that, astirax hosts are animals, normally weak and fragile, and they can be kept away with a 1st level ability of the spiritual channeler, a legate with this touch attack would kill any channeler with successive attacks using it.
I'm changing this to a normal attack, but will also let it deal damage as normal.
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We seem to have a different take to what evil means here, and also, what end the legates, and not the shadow, have inwhat they do to the world.
Perhaps. Probably. But the truth remains that most legates are the fanatical followers of an evil god, whose agenda is destroying the Fey, magic, and possibly the entire world. And that is canon.
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Dirigible
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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2006, 10:16:59 PM »

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Exactly, which is why an astirax is an ally of a legate, not a class ability.

I've got to agree with Bleak here. As long as you explicitly spell out somewhere that most legates have an astirax companion, it's perfectly viable to just have them as a creature that commonly turns up.

To solve the communication problem give astiraxes telepathy.
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Nifelhein
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« Reply #22 on: October 06, 2006, 08:05:21 AM »

Did the fact that orcs are not a class ability of the legate ever prevent you from giving legates an orc bodyguard? As for an astirax's advanced abilities, those should be part of its own powers, not those of the legate. I'll see if I can't drum up some rules on Astiraxes, and advancing them in HD.

Orcs are not a necessary part of the astirax's duties, actually, though they help fullfill many of them. Astirax are, until now, an intgral part of the legate's duty, even more because unlike a legate the spirit's alegiance lies mostly with Izrador and ess with its own self, sure there are examples of the contrtary, but those are exceptions. Unlike astiraxes legates tend to do things not because the shadow wants it but because they want something out of the situation, even Sunualel has selfish plans, if the the 1st legate puts himself above his own faith, why wouldn't the others be like that, and there are many many situations in the books where legates are less pious than selfish, blame Kane and Fane for that, they wanted the Order to have in-fighting, they made it happen.

Advancing an astirax without some link to the legates while looking like a possible fix still would still result in one of two situations, all astirax will have advancement pretty close to one another when their legate's reach certain levels, or they will be so random that rebuking an astirax will stat happening instead of the animal it possesses. Ont he first case we are back to the place we started, advancement tied to the legate level, in the second we end up with too weak astiraxes, meaning they will not be as feared once the characters discover that, so far a level 20 party still has things to fear from an astirax.

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A higher-level legate could command a higher-level Astirax. Also, with some of the tier 2 powers, he could increase his effective class level, commanding even higher HD Astriaxes. As for Sunulael's Astirax well, I was surprised not to find it in Legends.

So Sunulael either does not have an astirax or they forgot to consider it, damn Rob, it had sooo much room for nice things in that alone. ohwell If the legate has to spend part of his power to command with an astirax it will be all the less common, meaning control of magic will be a lot weaker too, making Izrador's goal all the more weaker, the reason astirax were a class ability is not because it is a ccoool thing all legates would want, but rather because they are an integral part of the Shadow's plans. In your system a legate would only control an astirax when he reaches 12th level, and that is a basic plain astirax, that would solve the problem of the astirax's independence, but not its weakness and the communication issues.

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True, but most of those spells are of a relatively high level, severely limiting the abilities of lower-level legates to control outsiders.

I'm thinking about expanding their spell-list.

I was hoping to create thematic choices of spells for legates too, through the domains. Perhaps I should make new legate “schools of magic”. They'll need a different name, though.

No lower level character should be controlling outsiders, they are demons, devils, celestials, elementals and other creatures usually too pwoerful to be at the mercy of a low level character, they should be able to protect themselves though, and that is what the lower level spels are there for.

Expanding their spell list is a very good thing, but be careful on introducing too many wizard spells into the list. I was also on the idea of domains as the thematic choices for legates for my version of the class using points, the idea would be to take the domains and divide spells among them, this would take a lot f work, mainly because things like Fireball and Lightning Bot should always be kept on the channeler list only, while things like ressurrection and the like would have to be kept on the legate's list. If you want to make a tribute to the origins each choce can be named Sphere, if we have to divide lower level spells from higher level spells, or just make "greater schools", we call it minor sphere and major sphere.

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Righty. Perhaps I'll limit some of the domains. On the other hand, who says a legate with the Healing domain will be accepted anywhere but in the Umbral Catholicon? In some D&D settings, your choice of domains determines what role you play in your church.

I've removed the ranks. Be happy. HAPPY, DAMMIT! Tongue

In some D&D settings gods grant only 2 of a group of 3 or 4 domains, so in that case things are all different from Midnight. In the case of the choice limiting which orders you may get into, it folow Derulbaskul's ideas on the sects of shadow, to qualify to one you must have domain X, level X. Personally I dislike this choice but I will quit complaining about it, if you end up doing the spheres thing, the domain powers could be called sphere focus, granting a +1 DC to spells in there and a power attached to it, mainly because sphere woudl be weaker than schools. Wink

Well, this is your class take after all, I just wanted to make sure you have conviction that advancement within the order by class level  should stay or that it isn't such a good idea to have it like that, if you took it out because you think my points have merit, good, if not, put it back, i don't want you to end up with a class you wouldn't use yourself. ;

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Destroy the world to raise Izrador to the heavens? Destroy land to drive away the channeled magic of Aryth? Destroy life for a god who is death? Corrupt the hearts of men to darkness, and see them slay each other? The list goes on, and destruction is indeed a major part of Izrador's, and therefore his priesthood's, agenda.

I don't think Izrador's and his priesthood's agendas are the same, Izrador wants soemthign else, if he has to destroy the world to make it happen or if dedstroying it will just make it happen sooner, fine, the priesthood is not the same, at leats not to me, they want to rule the world and have others to follow, humanity is very greedy and proud, they want to put themselves above all others, not to destroy any existing other and thus have no one to worship them.

Only lunatics in my games would seek to destroy the world without anything else to look for after that. Besides, the phrasing could be liek this for the priesthood: Put the world to suffer to restore Izrador's glory? Conquer land to dirve away the insidious channeled magic of Aryth? Sacrifice people to a god that grants you power? Make men see the truth and watch them battle each other for that truth? As I said, I don't see the priesthood and the god sharing plans, at all.

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Roger, I'll change drain magic to a normal attack.

It will be a much better idea than having it allowing a save, at least on the legate's side. Also, I wondered whether it is also a standard action to activate the smite abilities, you take that as a standard and it is unclear whether smite is not part of that, and if they are not, would it be possible to use more than one smite effect on the same attack? Like Smite good spellcasting fey? Just checking. Wink

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Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then. “Just dark sorcerers” is exactly what I want. Fits in with great stories of evil priesthoods like those in Conan and Call of Cthulhu.

That is fine to me.

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I'll toss read an write in as a class skill for the Soldier Legate too. However, the two paths are radically different, and represent two very separate parts of the Order of Shadow. Even M2E specifies that soldier legates are a faction apart from the order at large. Sort of like templars and priests (once again using the mideival Catholic church as an example). And before anyone voices it, yes, I know the templars were trained as warrirs first, then chose to become monks.

Perhaps having Knowledge Geogrpahy would be good too, for tactical reasons, and spellcraft because it is part of the spellcaster's bag.

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Core MN legates have 4 + Int SP. If skill lists suck so much, could you please come with a few suggestions on what skills to add and what skills to remove?

Well, it always stuck me as odd that fighters, and thus soldier legates, don't have spot and listen on their list, they are usually the guards of a place, the ones encharged with protecting it from outsided infiltration. Unless you are not a fighter you will be as hopeless against a rogue as a 1st level wizard against a few cats. twisted

And as far as I know, military training should include a few tricks with a rope, so Use Rope would be part of it too. I won't even delve into the greater ability Rogues have in lying and detecting such lies, because in the end all classes would have social skills as class, really. I have already suggested two skills for the soldier legate too. Wink

The thing is, even if fighters had the whole skills available to thema t a 1 to 1 ratio, they would still have to cover some basics, and they don't get enough points, I think the list shouldn't eb all the fighter must have, but rather have room for differentiation, but I am heavily against the double limitations class skills list and skill point amount present.

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The energy travels along the haft of the weapon, striking the attacker. As for the Fort/Will thing, roger, and I think I agree.

I'm changing this to a normal attack, but will also let it deal damage as normal.

Well, better include that description there, would help explain how it works for all melee cases. Dealing damage is fine then too, I have some other comments above though.

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Perhaps. Probably. But the truth remains that most legates are the fanatical followers of an evil god, whose agenda is destroying the Fey, magic, and possibly the entire world. And that is canon.

Well, I don't see canon stating clearly that Izrador's plan is to destroy the fey, magic and possibly the entire world, instead that he wants to go back to his place in the heavens, to finish what he started, those things you mention are merely the means to achieve His Dark intent. Aside from that, the order of shadow is not, at least as far as I see it, a group of fanaticl followers, sure there are those too, but there are faithful people whose allegiance is not blindly given.

We disagree on what evil means in D&D, as an alignemnt, and we seem to disagree on what the canon says too. I am fine with it though, this is your baby after all.

I've got to agree with Bleak here. As long as you explicitly spell out somewhere that most legates have an astirax companion, it's perfectly viable to just have them as a creature that commonly turns up.

To solve the communication problem give astiraxes telepathy.

If having an astirax involves the sacrifice of a grater part of your powers, or if you have as mcuh difficulty to communicate with it as you have to do so with other spirits, then it is not going to be common, havig less astirax in the world is not furthering the shadow's plans at all, so i am not into the idea myself. Giving the astirax telepathy would solve the issue? How would it work? Would it be able to communicate telephatically to orcs? the Kurasatch Udareen? Resistance Fighters? Elves? In the end it would be too limited, much like we have now, with them advancing with the legate, either that or the telepathy could be used to find mroe than his sense magic can, meaning it would be a little too powerful.
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Bleak Knight
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AKA Draug


« Reply #23 on: October 06, 2006, 11:10:45 AM »

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Orcs are not a necessary part of the astirax's duties, actually, though they help fullfill many of them. Astirax are, until now, an intgral part of the legate's duty, even more because unlike a legate the spirit's alegiance lies mostly with Izrador and ess with its own self, sure there are examples of the contrtary, but those are exceptions....
I never said a thing about tying astiraxes and orcs together. Anyway, astriaxes are magic hunters, not loyalty-ensurers, that's the duty of the Sisterhood of Tender Mercies. Also, not all legates are tasked with hunting magic. That's the duty of the Witch Takers. You can blame Iain and Eric for that too. Wink

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Advancing an astirax without some link to the legates while looking like a possible fix still would still result in one of two situations, all astirax will have advancement pretty close to one another when their legate's reach certain levels, or they will be so random that rebuking an astirax will stat happening instead of the animal it possesses.
Nothing will be random, because the GM will determine how advanced the astirax is. It depends on the EL he desires for the encounter.

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...If the legate has to spend part of his power to command with an astirax it will be all the less common, meaning control of magic will be a lot weaker too, making Izrador's goal all the more weaker, the reason astirax were a class ability is not because it is a ccoool thing all legates would want, but rather because they are an integral part of the Shadow's plans. In your system a legate would only control an astirax when he reaches 12th level, and that is a basic plain astirax, that would solve the problem of the astirax's independence, but not its weakness and the communication issues.
You're contradicting yourself. Astirax are not supposed to be controlled by their legates, they are supposed to cooperate with them. In this we agree, and because the astirax is not a faithful minion, I removed him as a class ability. It is now an independently operating agent of Izrador, with a preference for cooperating with legates.

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No lower level character should be controlling outsiders, they are demons, devils, celestials, elementals and other creatures usually too pwoerful to be at the mercy of a low level character, they should be able to protect themselves though, and that is what the lower level spels are there for.
Yet the spiritual channeler can do just that. If it can be done with arcane magic, why not with divine? Besides, the doubling of an outsiders HD means control of elementals and outsiders will be very limited.

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Expanding their spell list is a very good thing, but be careful on introducing too many wizard spells into the list...
I wasn't thinking of introducing any arcane spells. Rather, I was thinking about dividing the divine spells into thematic groups, and let legates chose from them. Spheres might be a name. I'll see what I come up with.

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In some D&D settings gods grant only 2 of a group of 3 or 4 domains, so in that case things are all different from Midnight.
Izrador grants the domains Death, Destruction, Evil, Magic and War. Some of these can be replaced if the legate is in a special faction within the Order. Still pretty close to basic d20 domain restrictions.

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In the case of the choice limiting which orders you may get into, it folow Derulbaskul's ideas on the sects of shadow, to qualify to one you must have domain X, level X. Personally I dislike this choice but I will quit complaining about it, if you end up doing the spheres thing, the domain powers could be called sphere focus, granting a +1 DC to spells in there and a power attached to it, mainly because sphere woudl be weaker than schools.
I will probably not have any game-mechanical requirements for positions in the church after all. Domain powers however, are often more flavorful than +1 to spells of a specific type. I'll see what I come up with, but I promise you spheres will not be (much) weaker than schools.

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Well, this is your class take after all, I just wanted to make sure you have conviction that advancement within the order by class level  should stay or that it isn't such a good idea to have it like that, if you took it out because you think my points have merit, good, if not, put it back, i don't want you to end up with a class you wouldn't use yourself.
It's going out.

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I don't think Izrador's and his priesthood's agendas are the same, Izrador wants soemthign else, if he has to destroy the world to make it happen or if dedstroying it will just make it happen sooner, fine, the priesthood is not the same, at leats not to me, they want to rule the world and have others to follow, humanity is very greedy and proud, they want to put themselves above all others, not to destroy any existing other and thus have no one to worship them.

Only lunatics in my games would seek to destroy the world without anything else to look for after that. Besides, the phrasing could be liek this for the priesthood: Put the world to suffer to restore Izrador's glory? Conquer land to dirve away the insidious channeled magic of Aryth? Sacrifice people to a god that grants you power? Make men see the truth and watch them battle each other for that truth? As I said, I don't see the priesthood and the god sharing plans, at all.
Well, we disagree, then. And what would the legates gain from this? Ascencion, of course. Still, it matters not. What matters is that I want some legates to be able to taint the land around them with dark energy, because it is scary, and cool.

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It will be a much better idea than having it allowing a save, at least on the legate's side. Also, I wondered whether it is also a standard action to activate the smite abilities, you take that as a standard and it is unclear whether smite is not part of that, and if they are not, would it be possible to use more than one smite effect on the same attack? Like Smite good spellcasting fey? Just checking.
Smites are parts of regular attacks, not standard actions. Making them standard actions would make them worthless at higher levels.

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Perhaps having Knowledge Geogrpahy would be good too, for tactical reasons, and spellcraft because it is part of the spellcaster's bag.
Roger. Consider it done.

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Well, it always stuck me as odd that fighters, and thus soldier legates, don't have spot and listen on their list, they are usually the guards of a place, the ones encharged with protecting it from outsided infiltration. Unless you are not a fighter you will be as hopeless against a rogue as a 1st level wizard against a few cats.

And as far as I know, military training should include a few tricks with a rope, so Use Rope would be part of it too. I won't even delve into the greater ability Rogues have in lying and detecting such lies, because in the end all classes would have social skills as class, really. I have already suggested two skills for the soldier legate too.

The thing is, even if fighters had the whole skills available to thema t a 1 to 1 ratio, they would still have to cover some basics, and they don't get enough points, I think the list shouldn't eb all the fighter must have, but rather have room for differentiation, but I am heavily against the double limitations class skills list and skill point amount present.
As long as the fighter doesn't have those skills, the soldier legate won't either. That will have to be a separate house rule.

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Well, better include that description there, would help explain how it works for all melee cases. Dealing damage is fine then too, I have some other comments above though.
Ok, fine, I'll throw in an extra sentence.

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Well, I don't see canon stating clearly that Izrador's plan is to destroy the fey, magic and possibly the entire world, instead that he wants to go back to his place in the heavens, to finish what he started, those things you mention are merely the means to achieve His Dark intent. Aside from that, the order of shadow is not, at least as far as I see it, a group of fanaticl followers, sure there are those too, but there are faithful people whose allegiance is not blindly given.
Canon clearly states that elves and dwarves are killed on sight, that there is a war going on against those to races, and that the goal of those wars is not conquest, but genocide. Canon also states that Izrador is attempting to drink all the magic of the world, rendering it barren. It also states that he does this to return to his true state as a god (His Dark Intent). And yes, while all legates are believers, there are lots of legates who are not fanatical followers. That's why there are multiple spells, domains and traits to chose from.

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We disagree on what evil means in D&D, as an alignemnt, and we seem to disagree on what the canon says too. I am fine with it though, this is your baby after all.
The meaning of the canon alignment Evil is stated in the PHB. Modify as you please, but that is canon, and what this is based on. As for canon, well, I'd like some third opinions, but this isn't a thread about evil, it's a thread about legates. I suppose they're tied together, but it doesn't really affect the game mechanics of the class.
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Quote from: Dirigible on Yesterday at 23:16:59
I've got to agree with Bleak here. As long as you explicitly spell out somewhere that most legates have an astirax companion, it's perfectly viable to just have them as a creature that commonly turns up.

To solve the communication problem give astiraxes telepathy.

If having an astirax involves the sacrifice of a grater part of your powers, or if you have as mcuh difficulty to communicate with it as you have to do so with other spirits, then it is not going to be common, havig less astirax in the world is not furthering the shadow's plans at all, so i am not into the idea myself. Giving the astirax telepathy would solve the issue? How would it work? Would it be able to communicate telephatically to orcs? the Kurasatch Udareen? Resistance Fighters? Elves? In the end it would be too limited, much like we have now, with them advancing with the legate, either that or the telepathy could be used to find mroe than his sense magic can, meaning it would be a little too powerful.
Compare the legate to the core rules cleric. The legate has: The same spell progression, more skill points, and more special powers, one of them named “Astirax Companion”. I fail to see where the legate sacrificed some of his power in order to gain a demonic ally. An astirax with telepathy would be able to communicate with whoever it wants to communicate with. Telepathy is not mind-reading, so he wouldn't discover anything that the people it converses with would want him to discover.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2006, 11:13:22 AM by Bleak Knight » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2006, 05:09:00 PM »

I never said a thing about tying astiraxes and orcs together. Anyway, astriaxes are magic hunters, not loyalty-ensurers, that's the duty of the Sisterhood of Tender Mercies. Also, not all legates are tasked with hunting magic. That's the duty of the Witch Takers. You can blame Iain and Eric for that too. Wink

Nothing will be random, because the GM will determine how advanced the astirax is. It depends on the EL he desires for the encounter.

You spoke of orc bodyguards, that was the reason I included them in my reply. And the reason astirax are there is not as loyalty ensurers, but to ban magic and elves al around the conquered lan, as well as halflings, mainly because those races depend on magic in their society and they are either food or enemy. Hunting magic and having the means to find it where you are are different things but that is okay,

On the astirax advancement, that would be okay, jsut change the legate and astirax to the astirax's own advancement, a few adaptions are necessary but overall it will do. Yes, I quit complaining on that too. Smiley

You're contradicting yourself. Astirax are not supposed to be controlled by their legates, they are supposed to cooperate with them. In this we agree, and because the astirax is not a faithful minion, I removed him as a class ability. It is now an independently operating agent of Izrador, with a preference for cooperating with legates.

Yet the spiritual channeler can do just that. If it can be done with arcane magic, why not with divine? Besides, the doubling of an outsiders HD means control of elementals and outsiders will be very limited.

Coherence, who needs it? Roll Eyes

It is fine then, I would make sure they are very often paired together, perhaps with good feats granting both pwers because of the bonding, making it attractive can also make it frequently a choice. Wink

I wasn't thinking of introducing any arcane spells. Rather, I was thinking about dividing the divine spells into thematic groups, and let legates chose from them. Spheres might be a name. I'll see what I come up with.

You said you wanted to expand the list, I know there only two in Midnight, but the wizard/sorcerer sublist from the core rules are the most dangerous place to look for, just pointed that out. Spheres come from D&Ds history, in 2nd edition, the one I am msot familiar with, they were to the divine spellcasters what the schools were to the arcane spellcaster, that is why i suggested the name. Wink

Izrador grants the domains Death, Destruction, Evil, Magic and War. Some of these can be replaced if the legate is in a special faction within the Order. Still pretty close to basic d20 domain restrictions.

I was talking about the usual core rules and how Midnight comes and how you changed that in your class, unless i completely misuderstood your writing in the PDF that is the one which does not follow the 3-4 domains usual rules, but that point is moot now.

I will probably not have any game-mechanical requirements for positions in the church after all. Domain powers however, are often more flavorful than +1 to spells of a specific type. I'll see what I come up with, but I promise you spheres will not be (much) weaker than schools.

It's going out.

I like domain powers, what i meant is that most probably pheres or whatever name it ends up with will be more numerous than schools of magic, in that case the counterpart of Spell Focus for divine magic should be Sphere Focus, and given its more limited scope the feat would need a little boost, i would say that one feat would be the one to grant the domain power and still give the +1 to save DCs for the sphere spells.

That is what i was thinking, divine spell focus aka Sphere Focus grants +1 to spell save DCs and a domain power.

Well, we disagree, then. And what would the legates gain from this? Ascencion, of course. Still, it matters not. What matters is that I want some legates to be able to taint the land around them with dark energy, because it is scary, and cool.

Well, we disagree, fair enough.

Smites are parts of regular attacks, not standard actions. Making them standard actions would make them worthless at higher levels.

Then i think it needs a little rewording to make it clear, because I agree with you, but it can be a little misleading as it is now. Is it possible to use two or three smite types at the same time though? I would say activating them is the so called swift action, thus no two could be used at the same round.

Roger. Consider it done.

As long as the fighter doesn't have those skills, the soldier legate won't either. That will have to be a separate house rule.

Smiley

Well, the fighter gets more in Midnight than usual mainly because their skill list sucks, a weird way of fixing something I would say. But I agree, they should be close in that regard.

Ok, fine, I'll throw in an extra sentence.

I trust we only gain from that Smiley

Canon clearly states that elves and dwarves are killed on sight, that there is a war going on against those to races, and that the goal of those wars is not conquest, but genocide. Canon also states that Izrador is attempting to drink all the magic of the world, rendering it barren. It also states that he does this to return to his true state as a god (His Dark Intent). And yes, while all legates are believers, there are lots of legates who are not fanatical followers. That's why there are multiple spells, domains and traits to chose from.

Well, we disagree and I don't see we getting any close here, I make a large distance between Izrador and his agenda and legates and their agenda, so I quit this discussion now.

The meaning of the canon alignment Evil is stated in the PHB. Modify as you please, but that is canon, and what this is based on. As for canon, well, I'd like some third opinions, but this isn't a thread about evil, it's a thread about legates. I suppose they're tied together, but it doesn't really affect the game mechanics of the class.

I know what evil in D&D menas that is why I said we disagree in the way that is stated in canon, meaning I don't think your take is based on canon, and you don't think mine is. so we won't get anywhere, and you are right, it does not further the thread in question, we can discuss it some other time. Wink

Compare the legate to the core rules cleric. The legate has: The same spell progression, more skill points, and more special powers, one of them named “Astirax Companion”. I fail to see where the legate sacrificed some of his power in order to gain a demonic ally. An astirax with telepathy would be able to communicate with whoever it wants to communicate with. Telepathy is not mind-reading, so he wouldn't discover anything that the people it converses with would want him to discover.

Legates are more limited in their use of the spells granted, they must attend ceremonies and they are inside an order that expects something out of them. Core rules clerics don't, and your version has doen awya with the praying at a temple at intervals too. That is a pretty high loss of pwoer in my opinion.

No, but telepathy would allow an astirax to know if ther eis people nearby, so it does make him more capable of walking around, specially in cities. But whatever, this doesn't bother me that much, I as mainly pointing at it becase i don't think it is a perfect solution.
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