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Author Topic: Paragon classes in MN  (Read 36879 times)
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« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2007, 04:14:37 PM »

I like what you've done Doomed, but i still think that they are a bit on the powerful side... most, but not all. One of the problems I have with them is that they gain too much.
Its a tricky balancing act to design new game components cool enough for players to want them, but not so cool that they're unfair.  Too good and what you've made can be at risk for becoming 'broken,' whereas too 'balanced' and no one takes them, ala skill buff feats.     

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« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2007, 05:39:22 PM »


Orc:

Reduce the Polyglot from all know languages so something else (already discused).. either give him some skill points to spread around, or perhaps fluency in two languages with DM approval. that way, he won't be able to take Hungle Mouth and Courtier even though he never been to the south.

Fixed

Erunsil: Art of Magic should be removed, it's not even a favored class for them. And they are more warriors than channelers anyway...

The way I've designed the classes, I noticed that they are almost all more fighter-friendly than rogue or channeler. I wanted to make sure that taking these classes would not be a hindrence to the progression of rogues and channelers, hense the Art of Magic tossed in. The Erunsil are elves. They make phenomenal spellcasters (take a look at the Snow Which PrC if you doubt).

Remove one special ability... not sure which. Either Ambusher or Snow Walker would be my choice cause i like Icewood Bond.

Honestly, I think we have very different ideas of what abilities are powerful. IMO Icewood Bond and Dance of Knives (new ability name) are far more powerful than Ambusher and Snow walker. I think Master of Blades would be the one I'd chose to remove, but I'm really not convinced that anything needs to be. I look at these abilities and see them as being no more powerful than a Wildlander or Defender.

Gnome: Way too much stuff... Remove all the the Skill Mastery - X, from the class list; they still get plenty of cool stuff.

See, IMO, Skill Mastery is hardly even an ability. The only thing it does is speed up the game by removing unnecessary rolls. That's why it's a Tier 1 wildlander ability.

Roguish Heart i don't understand. Do they get 1d6 sneak attack?

No. If the character has rogue levels, Gnome Paragon levels stack with the Rogue levels for determining the ammount of Sneak Attack damage they do. A Rogue 5/Gnome Paragon 3 would Sneak Attack as an 8th level Rogue.

Sarcosan: A bit problematic as there are both Urban and Plains sarcosans... and appart from Knack for Intrigue, everything there is horse related.

Yeah, you're right. I really just couldn't come up with anything intrigue related that was interesting. Then I got to thinking about what being a Paragon meant. My conclusion was that you'd be the pinnacle of everything that your people found important. With the Sarcosans, they are good at intrigue, but they base value and greatness off of skill and ownership of horses. They are The People of the Horse, after all.

Halfling: I don't think Fearless fits nicely with Midnight Halfling. Nothing in the books indicate that, only that they are hardy (i think). Just dropping it will be fine I think, no need to replace it with anything.

Copied from Darkness Falls SRD: Halflings gain +2 racial bonus against fear effects

I gave halflings immunity to fear for the same reasons I gave Orcs immunity to cold. It's taking something they already do and amplifying it. Besides, it's really cool.

Caransil: Way too much stuff over here... Make player choose between Sword Dancer and Battle Caster, and also I think Battle Caster is too much, perhaps give a bonus to concentration (+5 maybe?)

That's not a bad idea. Changed.
As for Battle Caster, giving them a +5 bonus to concentration seems less powerful, but it means that the character will almost never fail that check. It's basically the same ability, just with more rolling. I'd rather speed up the game by removing the check altogether, but feel free to change it for your game.

Whisper Guided is something like the ability a Whisper Adepts gains at level 4. Perhaps, instead, give elves a +2 to their wisdom check to hear the whisper.

I felt that this was the most powerful ability of any of the Paragon Classes. The reason I was ok with it was because it is region specific, but after looking at it again, I think you're right. I just changed it. They can still be caught flat footed, but I kept the "unflankable" thing.

I'd remove Caster's Gambit as not all caransil will be casters so why should they gain it. That, or perhaps make the player choose between the two 3rd level abilities.

Yeah, that's a good idea. Changed.

Danisil: I don't like Through the Trees too much. I'll just take it out...

Really? My jungle elves are all tree-running, vine-swinging combinations of Legolas and Tarzan.

Miransil: I'd remove Crash like the Waves (these guys arren't really warriors...) and Skill Master (just because it's too much)

On a second look at the race, you're right. I took it out. Ebb and Flow is a strong enough ability to balance out a lightly loaded 1st level.


Thanks for helping me fine tune them.
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Doomed Hero
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« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2007, 05:41:31 PM »

no one takes them, ala skill buff feats.     

Haha! Yeah. Totally agree. I hate when PrC's require skill buff feats. Might as well say-

Prerequisites: Set two Feats on fire.
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« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2007, 12:43:23 AM »

Thanks for asking, Steve. Lets see if I can explain my thinking.
'preciate you doing that, btw.

In my game I have an entire meta-plot as to why they exist, and why Pathwalkers are inexorably drawn to each other.
I'd really like to hear more about these topics, as the uniqueness of the MIDNIGHT setting is challenging to make believable reasons for how the party comes together.  I get that I cannot "rely on the cliche of characters meeting in a tavern or some such."  But I wish they had put material in the core book to help "craft plausible and meaningful reasons for the individual characters to be adventuring together."  Any chance of a new thread for this?  I've read the "How do you guys handle mixed race parties?" thread, and having used the dream technique before, want something different.  Ditto for 'you're on the run from the law' device.  A list or table would be sweet- the more options for GMs the better.

in terms of Midnight I like the idea of being able to be a paragon of my race without having to sacrifice my Path to do it.  With Paragon Classes you can have your cake and eat it too.
Hmm.  Doomed Hero, you originally talked about not liking the "Paragon Paths" (Pureblood, Northborn), but I was wondering how you felt about the racial champions from Steel And Shadow?  Granted, they're not the 3 Levels, but they very much seem like an existing MIDNIGHT version of Paragons, right down to the art piece on page 21 matching the Paragon art from Unearthed Arcana.  i.e. they're all standing in a line looking bad ass.

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« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2007, 01:46:16 AM »

you originally talked about not liking the "Paragon Paths" (Pureblood, Northborn), but I was wondering how you felt about the racial champions from Steel And Shadow?  Granted, they're not the 3 Levels, but they very much seem like an existing MIDNIGHT version of Paragons, right down to the art piece on page 21 matching the Paragon art from Unearthed Arcana.  i.e. they're all standing in a line looking bad ass.

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I like them as a concept. Their main selling point is that they gain Racial Combat Abilities as they progress, but because the Racial Combat Abilities can be gained through the expenditure of one feat, I don't like the fact the the Racial Champion paths can be mostly copied by anyone else with a spare feat lying around.

I give allow the Racial Combat Training feat to be picked up for free by anyone with at least 4 levels in Fighter who spends the necessary time training with an armsmaster of their race. I like the abilities and the mechanics behind them, and generally feel that fighters need a bit more than other classes to make them versatile.

The Racial Champions were actually what got me thinking about Paragons in the first place.

Though now that you've got me thinking about it, I may come up with an Exalted Paragon PrC for people who really want to design the pinnacle of their race's ideals and evolution. Hmm. Maybe I'll use the Legendary Classes as a starting point.
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« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2007, 01:54:51 AM »

Just realized I'd left out Hit Dice. Fixed.
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« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2007, 02:19:49 AM »

because the Racial Combat Abilities can be gained through the expenditure of one feat, I don't like the fact the the Racial Champion paths can be mostly copied by anyone else with a spare feat lying around.
Well, to be fair, generally there aren't any spare feats when you're buidling a solid character.  Moreover, even if you spend said feat, "You must still find a teacher and spend the necessary time {one month} and experience to learn each technique."  This should by no means be easy, especially in the MIDNIGHT setting and perhaps could serve as the basis for a mini-adventure itself.  (Or at least as a means of getting the party to go in the direction you'd like them to go).  Finally, learning techniques via taking feats is only allowed once per BAB increase.

A racial champion, meanwhile, "gains a cultural fighting technique from his culture without the expenditure of time or XP."  They also do not have the BAB restriction.

But I agree with you that fighters need a bit more 'pazazz' and think that the cultural fighting techniques are that spice.

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« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2007, 03:17:20 AM »

I totally agree, but like you said, when you're building a solid character you don't often have extra feats, which is why I give Cultural Fighting Techniques out for free under the right circumstances. It helps give fighters a few more options, which they badly need. It's been my observation that many fighters become one-trick ponies.
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« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2008, 06:50:11 PM »

I came back to this project because one of my players as taken a couple of levels of Dwarf Paragon and had asked if they should get some kind of skill-based ability to be able to make them more effective craftsmen. I agreed that Dwarf Paragons should be "all that is Dwarf" and wrote up a new ability.

I've been having issues with the D&D 3.5 skill system (particularly crafting and knowledge skills), so i decided to make an "umbrella" skill for the Paragon to give them the ability to put more skill points elsewhere.

I was thinking that a similar skill-type ability could be made for a couple of the other Paragon classes, perhaps even something to replace the controversial "skill mastery" abilities possessed by a few of them. Any ideas?

Also, I was hoping to bring this to the attention of new eyes in hopes of new feedback.
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« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2008, 06:57:58 AM »

This is an excellent thread and the rules and ideas you guys have hashed out should probably be added into the Tome of Shadows, Volume III.  In the meantime, is there any chance you might re-summarize the most up-to-date, revised version here for use?  I could just then just copy and paste the whole thing right into my own personal Midnight DM's handbook for use in my group.  If not, that's OK, I can piece it together well enough by going over the posts again.

I especially liked the point made about whether some of the various Paragon classes were too strong as written:  It is very true to observe that it's a finely lined distinction drawn between whether a new class of PrC is "too powerful" or whether it is too bland and weak.  It's more often than not true to see a variant class or PrC that is identified by the players as not worth deviating from a core class progression for. 

The only actual PrCs used by the PCs in my group over the last 4 years have been Wizard, Druid, Insurgent Spy, and Warrior of the Dark Blood.  Everyone else has stuck with the base M2E core classes.

Anyway, good usable work on the Midnight Paragon classes...

L

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« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2008, 12:35:51 PM »

I've been going in and just editing the old posts in order to avoid having a problem with multiple versions, so all the versions you see are the most updated ones. I can copy and paste them into one big reply at the end of the thread to make it easier to navigate though. Less searching is better.
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« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2008, 12:42:42 PM »

Erenlander Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be an Erenlander.

Erenlander Paragons have d10 Hit Dice

Erenlander Paragons use the Fighter's Base Attack progression

Erenlander Paragons have Good progression in two saves of their choice.

Erenlander Paragons gain 4+int skill points per level. Each level Erenlander Paragons may choose any 10 skills as class skills.

1st: Bonus Feat, Art of Magic
2nd: +2 to any attribute.
3rd: Bonus Feat

Art of Magic: Erenlander Paragon levels stack with Channeler levels for determining the highest level spells they can cast. In addition,  at each level of this class an Erenlander Paragon receives one additional point of Spell Energy.




Dorn Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be a Dorn.

Dorn Paragons use d12 Hit Dice

Dorn Paragons use the Fighter's Base Attack progression

Dorn Paragons have Good Fortitude saves

Dorn Paragons gain 4+int skill points per level. Climb, Craft, Jump, Listen, Ride, Spot, and Survival are class skills for the Dorn Paragon.

1st: Honor's Chosen,
2nd: +2 Strength, bonus Feat
3rd: Heavy Hitter

Honor's Chosen: At 1st level, the Dorn Paragon becomes aware that he is destined for greatness. Other Dorns also recognise this trait instinctively. When interacting with other Dorns, the Paragon gains a +4 bonus to Charisma checks. When fighting with 4 or more other Dorns, his Dornish allies gain a +1 bonus to attack and damage if they are within 50 feet and can see the Paragon. If the Paragon should ever gain the Leadership feat, this ability raises Leadership score by 4.

Heavy Hitter: When attacking with a 2 handed weapon a Dorn Paragon doubles his strength bonus for the purposes of determining damage.




Sarcosan Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be an Sarcosan.

Sarcosan Paragons have d8 Hit Dice

Sarcosan Paragons use the Fighter's Base Attack progression.

Sarcosan Paragons have Good progression in Reflex saves.

Sarcosan Paragons have 4+int skills per level. Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge- Local, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, and Survival are class skills for a Sarcosan Paragon.

1st: Skill Mastery- Ride, Knack for Intrigue
2nd: Powerful Lancer, Parting Shot
3rd: Horse Archer, Unhorse

Skill Mastery- Ride: A Sarcosan Paragon may take 10 on all ride checks, even under stressful conditions.

Knack for Intrigue: At 1st level a Sarcosan Paragon gains a bonus equal to their Sarcosan Paragon class level on all Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive and Intimidate checks.

Powerful Lancer: At 2nd level a Sarcosan Paragon may use their mount's Strength modifier for determining damage while using a lance to Charge from horseback.

Parting Shot: While making a Withdraw action from horseback, a Sarcosan Paragon my choose to take a single ranged attack against the target they are Withdrawing from at any point during their movement. This is a Swift action.

Horse Archer: A Sarcosan Paragon does not suffer the penalties normally incurred while using a ranged weapon while mounted.

Unhorse: If a mounted Sarcosan Paragon successfully hits a mounted opponent while charging, the opponent must make a Ride check at a DC equal to the damage dealt. If they should fail the ride check, the attack is treated as a successful bull rush, moving their enemy, but not the enemy's mount. (margin of success is equal to the amount they failed the Ride check by.) The enemy then falls to the ground, and must make a Reflex save against the damage dealt or fall prone.
Example: Sahar, the Sarcosan Paragon charges a mounted Legate with a lance, using the ride-by-attack feat, and doing 26 points of damage. The legate is forced to make a DC26 Ride check. He rolls a total of 16, and finds himself lifted out of the saddle by the force of the impact, and carried 15 feet by the passing Sarcosan's lance. (5 feet, +1 per point he failed the check by, as per the Bull Rush rules) The Legate is then forced to make a DC 26 reflex save (which he also fails) and suddenly finds himself face down in the mud, 15 feet from his horse.





Orc Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be an Orc, or have Orc blood.

Orc Paragons have d12 Hit Dice

Orc Paragons use the Fighter Base Attack progression

Orc Paragons have Good Fortitude Save Progression

Orc Paragons gain 2+int Skills per level. Climb, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge- Shadow, Profession- Soldier, and Speak Language are class skills for an Orc Paragon.

1st:  Fae Slayer, Polyglot
2nd: +2 Str, Winter Born,
3rd: Shadow's Chosen

Fae Slayer: At first level an Orcish Paragon gains the ability to cause greater harm than normal with each successful attack against a Fae creature. An Orc Paragon gains a bonus to damage equal to his Orc Paragon level whenever he hits a Dwarf, Elf, Gnome or Halfling in melee combat.

Polyglot: Orcs are well known for their ability to learn new tounges. An Orcish Paragon exemplifies this trate. At every new level of Orc Paragon, a character gains fluency in one spoken language. New languages must be familiar to the Orc. (I.E. They must have been heard before.)

Winter Born: At 2nd level an Orcish Paragon becomes immune to all non-magical cold.

Shadow's Chosen: At 3rd level an Orc Paragon is easily recognized as a prime example of their race. When dealing with other Orcs, the Orc Paragon gains a +4 bonus to Charisma checks. This bonus raises to +8 when interacting with members of the opposite sex. If the Orc Paragon is Male, they will most likely be chosen as a breeder by the first Mother-Wife that notices them.



Halfling Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be a Halfling or possess halfling blood.

Halfling Paragons have d8 Hit Dice.

Halfling Paragons use the Fighter's Base Attack progression

Halfling Paragons have Good Reflex and Will Saves

Halfling Paragons gain 4+int Skill Points per level. Balance, Craft, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge: Local, Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Spot, Survival, and Tumble are class skills for a Halfling Paragon.

1st: Vanish in the Grass, Art of Magic
2nd: +2 Dexterity, Low Blow
3rd: Small Target, Fearless

Vanish in the Grass: While in areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, Halfling Paragons gain the ability to Hide in Plain Sight. This ability extends to their Wogren (if they have one)

Art of Magic: Halfling Paragon levels stack with Channeler levels for determining the highest level spells they can cast. In addition,  at each level of this class a Halfling Paragon receives one additional point of Spell Energy.

Low Blow: Any time a Halfling Paragon does damage with a Critical Hit, their target must make a Fortitude save (DC equal to the damage dealt) or be Sickened for 1d4 rounds. This ability may only be used against creatures with basic Humanoid shape.

Small Target: Halfling Paragons gain a +2 dodge bonus to their AC. Any effect or condition which denies them their Dex bonus to AC also denies this ability.

Fearless: Halfling Paragons become immune to Fear effects.





Gnome Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be a Gnome of have Gnome blood

Gnome Paragons have d8 Hit Dice

Gnome Paragons use the Rogue base attack bonus.

Gnome Paragons have Good save progressions in Reflex and Will.

Gnome Paragons gain 8+int skill points per level. Appraise, Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Forgery, Gather Information, Knowledge- Shadow, Listen, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Slight of Hand, Speak Language, Spot, Swim, Tumble and Use Rope are class skills for a Gnome Paragon.

1st:  Skill Mastery- Balance, Quick Balance, Roguish Heart
2nd: +2 Charisma, Skill Mastery- Swim, Wanderer
3rd: Skill Mastery- Climb, Quick Climb, Catch 'em Snoozin'

Skill Mastery- Balance: At 1st level the Gnomish Paragon gains the ability to always be able to take 10 on Balance checks, even under stressful conditions.

Quick Balance: Years of growing up on the shifting floors of watercraft has ingrained the Gnomish Paragon with quick feet. At first Level the Gnomish Paragon no longer incurs movement penalties while balancing.

Roguish Heart: Gnome Paragon levels stack with Rogue levels for determining sneak attack damage.

Skill Mastery- Swim: At 2nd level, the Gnome Paragon gains the ability to take 10 on Swim all checks, even under stressful conditions.

Wanderer: At 2nd level the Gnome Paragon becomes familiar with an area much faster than other characters. A Gnome with this ability gains "phantom" ranks in Knowledge: Local of wherever they happen to be, at a rate of one per day, up to ranks equal to thier character level. Example: Toli the Gnomish Paragon is 10th level. He travels to the Kaladruns. At a rate of one point per day, to a maximum of 10 ranks, he gains Knowledge- Local (Kaladrun Mountains). When no longer in the Kaladrun mountains, he loses ranks gained from this ability at a rate of one per day.

Skill Mastery- Climb: At 3rd level the Gnomish paragon gains the ability to take 10 on all climb checks, even under stressful conditions.

Quick Climb: Years climbing ropes and masts on rocking ships have made the Gnomish Paragon a fast and graceful climber. At 3rd level, the Gnome Paragon no longer suffers movement penalties while climbing.

Catch 'em Snoozin: Any time a Rogue Paragon hits an enemy before they have had a chance to act in combat, the enemy must make a Fort Save with a DC equal to the damage dealt, or be Stunned for one round. This ability is only usable once per encounter.



Dwarf Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be a Dwarf.

Dwarf Paragons Have d12 Hit Dice

Dwarf Paragons use the Fighter's Base Attack progression

Dwarf Paragons have Good progression in Fortitude Saves.

Dwarf Paragons receive 4+Int Skill Points per level. Appraise, Climb, Craft, Knowledge: Dungeoneering, Knowledge: Shadow, Knowledge: Local (Kaladruns), Search

1st: Like a Rock, Dwarvencraft
2nd: +2 to Con, Outlast
3rd: Orc Bane

Like a Rock: A Dwarf Paragon gains Damage Reduction equal to their Dwarf Paragon class level.

Dwarvencraft: A Dwarf Paragon gains a knack for the cultural crafts of his people. If the Dwarf Paragon has skill ranks in Craft: Blacksmithing, Craft: Weaponsmithing, Craft Armorsmithing, Craft: Masonry, or Profession: Miner, this skill gets replaced with a Skill called Dwarvencraft. Dwarvencraft may be used in place of any check required for those skills. In addition, when a Dwarven Paragon is working with (or studying) metal or stone, Dwarfcraft also may be used in place of the Knowledge: Engineering and Appraise skills.

Outlast: The duration between any check brought on by fatigue, exhaustion, starvation, exposure to the elements, drowning, or travel is doubled.

Orc Bane: Any melee attack against an Orc by a Dwarf Paragon gains the Bane enchantment.




Caransil Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be a Wood Elf.

Caransil Paragon have d8 Hit Dice.

Caransil Paragons use the Fighter's Base Attack progression

Caransil Paragons have Good progression in Reflex Saves.

Caransil Paragons gain 4+Int Skill Points per level. Balance, Craft, Handle Animal, Heal, Hide, Jump, Knowledge: Local, Listen, Spot, and Tumble are class skills for the Caransil Paragon.

1st: Art of Magic, Sword Dancer OR Battle Caster
2nd: +2 to Dex. Whisper Guided
3rd: Will of the Queen, Caster's Gamble OR Master of Blades

Art of Magic: Danisil Paragon levels stack with Channeler levels for determining the highest level spells they can cast. In addition,  at each level of this class an Danisil Paragon receives one additional point of Spell Energy.

Sword Dancer: While using a Longsword and a Shortsword, a Caransil Paragon suffers only half the normal penalties for two-weapon fighting. In addition, when fighting with a Longsword and a Shortsword, a Caransil Paragon recieves a +1 Shield bonus to their AC.

Battle Caster: A Caransil Paragon no longer provokes Attacks of Opportunity by casting spells in melee

Whisper Guided: While within range of the Whisper a Caransil Paragon cannot be flanked.

Will of the Queen: If a Caransil Paragon fails a Will save against an Enchantment or Mind-Effecting spell or ability, the Caransil Paragon may continue to make a saving throw against the effect every round until the save is successful.

Caster's Gamble: Any time a Caransil Paragon casts a spell they may choose to make a Spellcraft check to attempt to reduce it's Spell Energy cost. The DC is equal to 20+ the spell level. Success means that the spell energy is reduced by one. Failure means that the Spell Energy is increased by one.

Master of Blades: If a Caransil Paragon has a Feat which is specific to either the longsword or the shortsword (such as weapon focus: longsword) They are treated as having that feat with both weapons. This ability only applies when using a longsword in one hand and a shortsword in the other.





Erunsil Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be a Snow Elf.

Erunsil Paragons have d10 Hit Dice.

Erunsil Paragons use the Fighter's Base Attack progression

Erunsil Paragons have Good Reflex save progression.

Erunsin Paragons gain 4+int Skill points per level. Balance, Climb, Craft, Hide, Jump, Knowledge- Local, Knowledge- Nature, Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, and Tumble are class skills of an Erunsil Paragon.

1st: Dance of Knives, Heart of Winter, Art of Magic
2nd: +2 Dexterity, Snow Walker
3rd: Ambusher, Icewood Bond

Dance of Knives: At 1st level the Erunsil Paragon gains a +1 bonus to attack and damage with Snow Elf fighting knives.

Heart of Winter: At 1st level, the Erunsil Paragon becomes immune to non-magical cold.

Art of Magic: Erunsil Paragon levels stack with Channeler levels for determining the highest level spells they can cast. In addition,  at each level of this class an Erunsil Paragon receives one additional point of Spell Energy.

Snow Walker: While in snowy conditions, the Erunsil Paragon gains the benefits of a Pass Without Trace spell. In addition, they never suffer movement or attack penalties as a result of rough terrain caused by snow or ice.

Ambusher: At third level, any time an Erunsil Paragon can strike a foe before the foe is are aware of their presence, their strike is automatically a critical threat.

Icewood Bond: When using an Icewood Bow, the Erunsil Paragon is able to triple their strength modifier when determaning damage, up to a maximum of +9 damage.





Danisil Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be a Jungle Elf.

Danisil Paragons have D8 Hit Dice

Danisil Paragons use the Fighter's Base Attack progression

Danisil Paragons have Good progression in Reflex and Will saves.

Danisil Paragons gain 4+Int Skill Points per level. Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Heal, Hide, Jump, Listen, Knowledge: Demons, Knowledge: Local (Aruun Jungle), Listen, Move Silently, Spot, Survival, Swim and Tumble are class skills for a Danisil Paragon.

1st: Poison Use, Through the Trees,  Art of Magic
2nd: +2 Dex. Way of the Sepi
3rd: Demonslayer

Poison Use: Danisil Paragons never risk poisoning themselves when creating or employing toxins.

Through the Trees: As long as there are trees, vines, or other appropriate hand-holds, a Danisil Paragon may move above the ground without taking any movement penalties. The Danisil Paragon must have at least one empty hand to use this ability.

Art of Magic: Danisil Paragon levels stack with Channeler levels for determining the highest level spells they can cast. In addition,  at each level of this class an Danisil Paragon receives one additional point of Spell Energy.

Way of the Sepi: A Danisil Paragon recieves a +1 bonus to Attack and Damage while fighting with two Sepi fighting knives.

Demon Slayer: Any melee attack made by a Danisil Paragon gains the Outsider Bane ability. In addition, Danisil Paragons gain a +2 bonus to Saves against special abilities or spells used by Outsiders.




Miransil Paragon

Prerequisites: Must be a Sea Elf.

Miransil Paragons have D8 Hit Dice.

Miransil Paragons use the Fighter's Base Attack progression

Miransil Paragons have Good progression in Reflex Saves.

Miransil Paragons gain 4+Int Skill Points per level. Balance, Climb, Craft, Jump, Knowledge: Local (Miraleen) Listen, Profession: Sailor, Spot, Swim, Tumble and Use Rope are class skills for a Miransil Paragon

1st: Powerful Swimmer, Art of Magic
2nd: +2 to Dex, Rigging Rat
3rd: Skill Mastery- Balance, Ebb and Flow

Powerful Swimmer: A Miransil Paragon's Swim speed increases to 3/4 their base speed.

Art of Magic: Miransil Paragon levels stack with Channeler levels for determining the highest level spells they can cast. In addition,  at each level of this class an Miransil Paragon receives one additional point of Spell Energy.

Rigging Rat: By using rope systems and acrobatic skill, a Miransil Paragon may move above the ground at their base land speed. Use of this ability requires a DC15 climb check and assumes that there are appropriate things to be swung on.

Skill Mastery- Balance: A Miransil Paragon may always choose to take 10 on balance checks even while distracted or endangered.

Ebb and Flow: A Miransil Paragon is used to shifting their balance and rolling with changes in their surroundings. This constant movement makes Miransil Paragons capable of rolling with potential dangers to lessen or completely negate their effects.  Miransil Paragon make Tumble checks to avoid the following dangers and attacks.
   A Miransil Paragon may make a Tumble Check in response to being attacked by an opponent using the Power Attack feat. It the Tumble check result beats their opponent's attack roll, any bonus damage from the power attack feat is negated.
   If a Miransil Paragon is Charged, they may make a DC 20 Tumble check to negate their enemies bonus to hit from charging (the opponent's AC penalty from charging remains)
   If a Miransil Paragon is Bull Rushed, they may make a Tumble check (DC equal to their opponent's attack roll.) If successful, the Miransil Paragon remains in their square, but their opponent moves as if the Bull Rush was successful (often past the Miransil Paragon altogether)
       Once per movement, a Miransil Paragon may make a Tumble check to avoid up to 20 feet of Hazardous terrain without taking movement penalties.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2008, 12:51:37 PM by Doomed Hero » Logged
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« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2008, 05:16:45 PM »

Thanks a lot for your effort!  I copied the whole post and forwarded it to my players.  It'll make for a cool additional set of options the next time the group makes a level...

L
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« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2008, 01:25:45 AM »

When it comes to paragons, I personally love the classes. I read into the champions and felt that they didn't so much fit the heroic struggle ideal. It's no secret that i am in Doomedhero's game, but the way we can be pathwalkers and paragons is nice. As it is an extension of the paragon idea in itself.

Personally I like to believe that in the world that is our game, our characters would be remembered as the paragons of their race, at least by those that knew them. By being who they are, possesing their abilities, and making an attempt, the paragons give to the fading hope of Aryth.

In our game I think there are two really prime examples of a paragons that are represented in folklore. And then there is a practical paragon. Our game's Dwarf and Dorn are both shining examples of their race. The dwarf knows the mountains and what it yields, but also is a considerable threat to anything that threatens his ancestral home. He is what all the dwarven children are hoped to be. Strong beyond belief, yet still knows the dying crafts and traditions of his peoples. The dorn is unstoppable as the icy winds that were his mother's midwife. Yet for all his combat prowess and savage steel, he still is the moral compass of his party. The gnome is knowledgable about the world and knows many things that is alien to most of the party, save for those whose favored region it is. When he grows older his family would come to him for advice, though more properly the phrase "What would Uncle Sholano do?" would be heard. When young dwarves are blooded in their first pit fights, they would strive to be like the The Brothers Kurgan, or Hrothgar of Clan Durgis. Young dorns swinging their sticks and learning their early swordplay would be told of the noble berodin who had a heart that could lift a mountain and a blade that would leave it two hills.

The point of all this yammering is, that paragons are the folk heros of their races. I could compare Hrothgar to Paul Bunyan, Berodin to Beowolf, and Sholana to Sinbad. While yes the math and abilities are fine and danady. what we are forgeting is how we should think of our paragons role in this bleak setting. Should they not get reknowns benfits and punishments, not mention special treatment or interaction with their and other races?
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« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2009, 04:10:43 AM »

Time to revive this thing, I think - based mostly on my wanting something creative to do.
First up, I have a few thoughts on the original Classes you've put together, but that's mostly just edity numbers stuff, and can wait.
Second -
Though now that you've got me thinking about it, I may come up with an Exalted Paragon PrC for people who really want to design the pinnacle of their race's ideals and evolution. Hmm. Maybe I'll use the Legendary Classes as a starting point.
Anything ever come of this? 'cause if not, I'd like to take a crack at it. I've had very little experience with the Legendary classes in general (as you know), but this idea definitely makes me happy, and that always makes me want to see things appear. Natch, if you already have any notes, I'd love to see 'em.
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« Reply #40 on: January 17, 2009, 02:03:15 PM »

Go ahead.

My original idea was to have the Exalted paragon be a 1 level class. (yeah. just one). Basically a substitution level. It's prerequisites should be culturally relevant to each race (For the Dorns, spirit quests and being recognized by the heads of more than one House would be a good start. Hard stuff, you get the idea).

In addition, they should have skill requirements that set the Class as unattainable before 16th level. Take a look at the things each race gets bonuses to. Those are, generally, the most important skills to that culture, and as such should be the required skills for the class.

Other culturally important things, such as weapons, should also play a role in the prereq's. (To use the Dorn again, the Bastard Sword is their weapon. Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword would be a reasonable requirement.)

As for the Class itself, think about the iconic things the race is known for, then blow them up to legendary proportions. Be creative. Look at 7th level spells for power guidelines.

I'm interested to see what you come up with.
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« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2009, 04:02:37 PM »

Okay, let's see what happens if I brainstorm-type. Excuse me if I ramble.

As a 1 level uber-class of whatever caliber, it needs to have some pretty serious prereqs, so that may as well be where we start. While we were talking the other night, we figured that it's more important they have Special reputation-based prereqs than huge numbers requirements, but I figure some basic skill or BAB things, just to make sure they're suitably epic, is probably a good idea as well. Here are some of the things we've talked about and I've thought of. Almost all of these, of course, will be subject to GM's discretion, since some of them are a little vague.

Erenlanders - Be able to prove blood ties to the true royal house or its significant servitors.
Dorns - Kill an entire fist of orcs in one blow.
Sarcosans - Earn the recognition of all the remaining Sarcosan noble houses or the heads of the plains tribes.
Caransil - Be chosen as Aradil's personal champion.
Erunsil - Go on a pilgrimage to contact the ancient spirit Xione, or command the defense of a Veradeen fortress.
Danisil - Vanquish one of the ancient demon spirits that haunt the jungle.
Miransil - Recover an artifact from the bottom of the sea.
Dwarves - Forge a covenant item.
Gnomes - Earn the rank of ship captain.
Halflings - Free an enslaved settlement from control of the Shadow.
Orcs -

A question, while I'm thinking about it - should Elflings, Dworgs, and Dwarrow get their own classes for this? If these are real Paragons, the exemplars of their race, it seems like half-breeds, however awesome, shouldn't qualify, but I don't want to cheat those players.

Anyway, on Miransil, Erunsil, and Orcs. The Elves, I'm just not especially familiar with, and the Orcs, I had a conundrum. Should they be Resistance exemplars, Shadow exemplars, or some strange combination that results in generic Orcish exemplars? Any ideas?
« Last Edit: January 21, 2010, 02:41:34 AM by Sholano » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2009, 04:49:08 PM »

Sholano- when you're brainstorming, remember to remind us if this is for the standard paragon classes or the exalted uber-version.

Took my sleep-deprived brain a while to figure it out.

The sarcosan one is a little much.
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« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2009, 04:52:26 PM »

Sorry, talking about the exalted one. And yeah, the Sarcosan thing is pushing it, but to be honest, I barely know what the Sarcosans are all about. I just have a vague picture of Rohan in my brain. When I have my books in front of me, I'll be able to put this together a little more coherently, I would think, but while at work it's a little jumbled.
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« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2009, 05:00:25 PM »

The Miransil one could be to recover a covanant item (or other powerful artifact) from the bottom of the sea.


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« Reply #45 on: January 23, 2009, 05:03:55 PM »

Good thought. Bam, updated!
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« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2009, 03:54:39 AM »

I think that the Erunsil Exalted would have to be recognized by the Snow, blood, and Tree of his/her family, or several family's.
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« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2009, 07:34:11 PM »

I think the Erenlander one is a bit weird. Its not so much you did something great but just happan to be the right person. You could be some bumbling idiot but hey you happan to have the right dad.
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« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2009, 11:36:39 AM »

I think the Erenlander one is a bit weird. Its not so much you did something great but just happan to be the right person. You could be some bumbling idiot but hey you happan to have the right dad.
A little bit, yeah. That's why the 'able to prove' bit is in there, and also why I mentioned the servitors, to open that up for differing plotlines, at least a little. And also, when you think about it, isn't that all, say, Aragorn had going for 'im? The blood of Numenor flowing in his veins and all that?
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« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2009, 08:40:21 PM »

"Aragorn had going for 'im? The blood of Numenor flowing in his veins and all that?"

From LOTR? Yes, but thats not what made him bad ass. Now Boromir, he was the one who was all about being of royal blood and would you call him a Paragonof his race? I hardly think so.

Who is to say that someone who isint of noble blood couldent possably be the pinicle of what an Arenlanders could be?
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