Question before i buy midnight 2e

[Manachild]

when 1e was out i was hearing lots of issues to do with book binding issues and books falling apart.

did this trend continue with 2e, if thier fine now i will buy one in a heart beat.

also is anything besides the 3.5 core dnd books required for use?

~dan

[LeaderDesslok]

Hi Manachild, welcome to AtS!

I haven't heard of too many people complaining of binding issues on 2E; I've had the book since day 1 and use it fairly extensively with no real wear to think of.

Outside of M2E and the core rules you don't need anything else, but of course there's plenty of Midnight supplementary material now to choose from to make things more fun. Do you have any idea what kind of adventures you're going to run? That would help narrow down the choices. A lot of other folks are going to add their recommendations I'm sure....

If I can toot my own horn for a minute, you can find many of the rules and most (almost all actually) of the prestige classes from every Midnight resource at my site, Darkness Falls. There's a link to the site in my sig. Have fun!

[Manachild]

I havent reallly given much thought to what sort of campaigns i would like to run. But i do know this.
I'm a huge horror fan (mostly supernatural and psycological horror and japanese type stuff but i like horror in general aslong as its not the uber gore type).. and for some reason , the darkness of this setting made me think i could add in some horror elements, and even use some stuff from the heroes of horror suppliment.

Maybe i'm wrong tho, but thats what i saw when i was looking at it

also why is it that the midnight 2e book on the amazon site is displayed as having a different cover to the one on the fantasy flight games one?

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1589942167/ref=ord_cart_shr/102-5232536-0634513?%5Fencoding=UTF8&m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&v=glance

[Nifelhein]

Welcome to AtS Manachild/dan. As LD said there are some people who faced falling pages in 2nd edition but the issue seems to be much less widespread than 1st edition had it, probably it has more to do with individual books than a lot of bad binding, mine seems to be fine until now, even though some pages have started to display the glue binding them, the critical areas seem to be the middle and the color pages at the beggining.

To play a Midnight game all you need is the core rule books (PHB, MM, DMG) and the 2nd edition book sure the other supplements can help you add depth and color to your game but they are far from required.

Other than that the setting is about heroical survival under a dark themed setting, morality, good and evil all have a twist sicne you have to make choices between them, like not helping a grroup of refugees or help them while risking to expose them to a patrtol searching your trail, or face the local legate (dark cleric of izrador) and then make the city be razed for resiting the Shadow.

I haven't seen Heroes of Horror but I suppose the idea would not be a perfect fit, neither would it be out of place, all in all some of us like our midnight games very very heroic, others are more dark and heroic and others like it dark and despairing. Whatever the case the setting book is filled with good descriptions, lively and interesting NPCs (not fully stated bu rather described as interesting people of a given region) and plot hooks, if you like games with dark themes then that alone will fill your mind.

Hope it helps.

[LeaderDesslok]

also why is it that the midnight 2e book on the amazon site is displayed as having a different cover to the one on the fantasy flight games one?

Those were placeholder images for the titles before they were finished. Several of the Midnight books still show placeholder images instead of the correct image. The correct image is the one at the FFG web site, as are the correct cover images for all products in the Midngiht line.

[Nifelhein]

So, turned away or have you decided in favor of the book anyway?

[Manachild]

The fact that there are binding issues at all disturbs me, WoTC books never have binding issues in my experience.

[Nifelhein]

I agree, but  haven't seen the quality Midnight has in any of the WotC settings I bought until now. You can get 1st edition for 5 dollars right now though, at FFG website.

[Radovarl]

The fact that there are binding issues at all disturbs me, WoTC books never have binding issues in my experience.

True enough, WotC hardcovers tend to be nigh indestructible, even with consistent abuse.  However, the quality of the contents of their books is about half that of FFG's, especially when compared to Midnight.  I too was a little concerned about the bad binding issue before purchasing the 2E book, but so far I've had no problems.  If you're the type of gamer who is fairly gentle with rulebooks, I doubt you'll have any trouble.  I haven't used mine in an actual gaming session yet, but I have read it through once and flipped around in it quite a bit since, and I don't feel like there is any danger of pages falling out.  Admittedly, you can tell when reading it that the book isn't exactly top-notch quality physically, but the superior writing, editing, etc. more than make up for it, IMO.  And if it falls apart, buy a second copy for your shelf and just glue/tape/whatever the original for a playing copy...

It would be nice if FFG could get its act together with these bindings, though.  The softcovers are fine, but I'd be willing to pay a few dollars more for a hardcover that doesn't crackle like a bagful of balsa wood being stepped on by an elephant when you open it .

[Nifelhein]

Actually, getting the first edition for 5 dollars is a god way to know if you are willing to get the extra money for the 2nd edition version, this sale can, at least give you somethign to work against the problems binding faces, even more because although there are differences between editions they are mostly mechanical, the 2nd edition has more details in a lot of things, true, but the flavour and theme is all the same, if not improved.

[Manachild]

True enough, WotC hardcovers tend to be nigh indestructible, even with consistent abuse.  However, the quality of the contents of their books is about half that of FFG's, especially when compared to Midnight.  I too was a little concerned about the bad binding issue before purchasing the 2E book, but so far I've had no problems.  If you're the type of gamer who is fairly gentle with rulebooks, I doubt you'll have any trouble.  I haven't used mine in an actual gaming session yet, but I have read it through once and flipped around in it quite a bit since, and I don't feel like there is any danger of pages falling out.  Admittedly, you can tell when reading it that the book isn't exactly top-notch quality physically, but the superior writing, editing, etc. more than make up for it, IMO.  And if it falls apart, buy a second copy for your shelf and just glue/tape/whatever the original for a playing copy...

It would be nice if FFG could get its act together with these bindings, though.  The softcovers are fine, but I'd be willing to pay a few dollars more for a hardcover that doesn't crackle like a bagful of balsa wood being stepped on by an elephant when you open it .

I'm obsessively gentle with my RPG books

i take very good care of them. 

[Albert]

If you're obsessively gentle with your books you will have no problems. I'm not, and mine's holding together nicely. The worst examples was with 1st edition midnight, were some of the books just fell apart, 2nd editions are as solid as you can expect a book with 400 heavy pages to be.

Also, there was a discussion a while back as to wether Midnight is a horror setting or not, although there were many different points of view I think we agreed that, while not a horror setting, midnight is a good setting for a horror game, or something like that. Welcome aboard.

[Manachild]

sorry, can i ask some more questions....

how is magic treated in midnight, i vaguely remember that its very low magic and that the fallen gods hounds can detect any use of magic, at least thats what i remember, what are the  facts.

one of my players normally plays a sorcerer, i dont want him to be annoyed by not being able to play a spell caster

[smeagol]

one of my players normally plays a sorcerer, i dont want him to be annoyed by not being able to play a spell caster

He'll get to play a hunted sorcerer.

Now that's much more challenging than vanilla D&D... 

[Nifelhein]

Basically Midnight has only one god, and he is not around doing things by himelf, he is more like a presence and a powerful spirit, able to corrupt but not direclty act (though not exactly gives a good picture). if you take a looka t the map of the world you will notice it is huge and that while we say the world is conquered it is not quite so, the human lands are, the elves strive for freedom and that a third if the continent and the dwarves too strive against the orcs and the hordees of followers of the shadow, making for about a fourth of the world there.

In the human lands all fey (the old demi humans of D&D/AD&D or non human races you get to play in D&D 3.X) awho are found have penalty of death (it is a war after all), reading and writing is forbidden, weapon usage or carrying is forbidden (of course some may be allowed, but that does not mean you won't see control over it) and magic is strictly forbidden.

All legates, the clerics of the dark god, have a companion called astirax, basically a spirit (outsider, incorporeal) with no body of its own adn the ability to possess animals, this one beast can detect any channeled magic (opposed to innate and divine magic) used in a given radius, determined by spell or item power, since they are bound to hunt all channelers (the clas that takes place of the spellcasting classes in midnight) the legates and their astirax usually scout away to find the surce of the magical aura and put that one to the sword.

There are spellcasters, they don't get as much high level spells to cast and they have more skills and abilities to cover for that, but they are not quite the same as the core rules casters, all classes with somewhat magical abilitie are also substituted/taken away, like the monk (replaced by defender), the ranger (replaced by wildlander), the druid, wizazrd, sorcerer and bard (replaced by the channeler and the three traditions - each tied to one ability score and different in power and theme), there is also no paladin or good cleric, but all channelers may learn to cast cure spells to cover some basic issues.

Really, i am happy to answer whatever questions you may have, and as I said, if you want to know what the setting is like, getting the 1st edition for 5 bucks plus shipping is nice enough, the bopok is great and you get most of the rules changes online at Darkness Falls (link at front page, right menu).

[Manachild]

wow, this seems bleaker and harder than ravenloft.

i'm somewhat concerned my players wont like it cause its so oppressive 

[Nifelhein]

It actually isn't so oppressive, i touched the areas you were mostly concerned about only, ravenloft was a game my players were not into at all, they hated it, every vbit of it, they love Midnight. While magic and fey are hunted, they are not that easy to find at all, covenant items are magical and not detectable, and the standard style one would give to characetrs in Midnight too, spells may call attention, but they are seconds long and so make tracing them from very hard to nearly impossible unless the creature is in the immediate vicinities.

Just to show you that i don't focus on that side of things, in southern erenland those who opposed the shadow and were ashamed of how the false sussars embraced the new rulers took to the wilderness and returned to their old ways, namods wandering the rolling plains, teaching their young the Paraboles of the Sorshef, the riders in the sky, and to fight for something most do not even know what is, freedom, justice and fairness. Those  are the now hunted Sarcosan freeriders.

In central erenland the erenlanders have taken to endure the shadow, that is their nature, they are not the proud dorns or the horse riding sarcosans, the king is gone and if tending crops and harvesting them is what keeps you alive, that is fine. But then there is old man Ganz, unknown to most in town he is a skilled fighter, but not with any weapon, like the garrison orcs, or with spells, like the cruel legates, in battle he wields his own body and peasant tools, turning all to deadly weapons, he taught all his descendants that art, amidst dances and cults to the dark god they learned and mastered their own way of resisting and when the time comes, they will strike back, Defenders they are, not of old traditions or ancient pride, but of their own race, of the common folk.

In the north the dorn warriors proved the bitter taste of defeat once again, but this time due to their own humanity, after a hundred years only the traitor princes and occupation forces remain, those who managed to survive went to the wild, surviving of their ancient battle rites and facing nature and orcs alike, these proud dorns shave their heads to date, a sign of their shame for falling so fast and without putting a real fight when the shadow and its horder came from the north, among those are two groups, Roland's raiders count with elven support and quick strikes to resist and take loss to the shadow, the pirate princes and the Norfall fleet survive where no orc likes to be, in the great fresh water sea, striking at transport and supply boats and ships alike they make passing through the Pellurian a dangerous game, hiding themselves in small islands they manage to avoid detection and speed and skilla re their only true friends.

But those are the ones conquered, or so they say, they fight to date, not as inexpressive as the shadow would say, and were they to have some manner of organization, the effort agains the elves and dwarves would face serious issues. Of the elves the humans know little, the vast Erethor is home to the oldest living being in Eredane, the Witch Queen of the elves, Aradil, walking unshod and hearing the whisper, she has seen mroe than 8000 years go past, her power is beyond any other in the continent, but she is one and the elves would be vbroken without her, the caransil, or wood elves are fighting against the ever moving burning line, tended for by Grial the Fey-Killer forces this war effort has been able to turn a vast expanse of forest into a desert of ash and blood, to the south the jungles of the Aruun are home to the danisil, this dark skinned elves are among the greatest demon hunters of all eredane, since the jungle is filled with all sorts of them, from the diminutive and numerous tuks to some powerful ones, thankfully most of them are imprisoned to the ruins of Ibon-Sul, an ancient civilization ruins left behind whose only legacy are the spiraling ruins and demons boudn to them.

To the north there are the erunsil, elves with skin and hair as pale as the snow that covers their lands, they arefewer than the others  but are the veterans in the war against the orcs, their tactics and techniques have proved deadly to the orcs, wielding iceewood bows and fighting knives they ambush and break groups of orcs far greater in number then themselves, they depend on the caransil for supplies but given their skill and efficiency the Witch Queen is more than willing to send them whatever she can.

The often forgotten Miransil leave to the west, in lands where war has not yet been taken to there is always a false sense of peace in the miraleen, diving contests are still happening and normal life seems to be the same for ages. But this race has also seen their own problems, in an attempt to find safer lands the witch queen has sent more than a few deecades ago a large group of vessels into the open sea, the crew all came from their own number and rare is the miransil whose look to the sea does not bear hope for parents yet to return. Rare are those who wander into the east and fight in battleground other than their land of birth, but even then, it is their supplies that feeds the war.

On the other side of the continent, in the mountain range of the Kaladruns are the dwarves, the Kurgun live above the ground, facing orcs and living one day at a time, these dwarves have an even quicker temper and are known for their powerful barbarian warriors, with their habit of adopting new members into the clan they have managed to become the dwarves that may yet bring more than hope to their people, amogn them are the feared and often looked tdown upon dworgs, the unfortunate offsping of a rape these orc blood bearing warrriors are gaining renown, their ferocity and dedication to those who have accepted them proving deadly weapons and a more than welcome addition to the war against the hated orcs. The clan dwarves have long ago left the surface world, living in their holdfasts they fight a war inside tunnels and with sieges, wielding weapons and facing orcs down to the last they fear not death but death without a large number of orcs at their feet.

But then, they are not all those who inhabit the land, there are the enslaved Dunni, or halflings as they are known, a delicacy among orcs and well suited for labor they strike from ithin and serve as spies to the other races, with this and their sabotages they have made the shadow suffer many more casulaties than they would otherwise. But there are also those who have avoided domination, the agrarian and nomadic who live free epend upon magical glamours to avoid detetion and live closely tyo their wogren companions. It is said they have some blood connections to the danisil elves, rumours often proven when an elfling is met, this halfbreed takes the abilities of both parents into a deeper degree, making for some fo the most dexterous being in eredane.

The gnomes are the last of the races of eredane, these treacherous and dangerous race can as easily provide you a place to hide and menas fo safe travelling as they may turn you to the local law for a profit, living double lives and serving as the shadow's water trtansport the gnomes are traders first and liers second, any commercee that still reaches the dwarves and elves are possible only through their hard work, they fight not a war in the open, but one made with words, deceoption and smuggling.

Against them are the ordrendor, or the chosen of the dark god, Orcs, they are called, vicious, strong and endless, supported by goblins, oruks, giant-man and following their kurasatch udareen this zealots fight against all enemies of the dark god with blind faith, they are the arms while the Order of Shadow is the mind, the legates are the most proeminent of the shadow's followers, it is them that tend to the dark god's fortress and the law in all of occupied eredane. They are not wihtout problems and do face one another though.

The four greatest of the Shadow, though, are the Night Kings, The Sorcerer, The First Legate, The Sword of Shadow and the Wrath of Shadow, formerly heroes of the resistance this corrupted and evil creatures are now the bane of those they once stood for, living examples of what befalls those who listen to the shadow's sweet words they are now more pwoerful than they could ever be, but thei master is hard to please.

But that is not all there is to it, of course. Midnight is, in the end, a setting with a dark theme tied to it, but one where heroes are needed and welcome, one were no book or NPC will tell you how the world can be bettered, it is a place where the ones that will set the way for the future are the ones at the game table. Evil has won, much like sauron would be were Frodo to fail in his journey, or worse, turn the ring willingly, but there is more than enough room for heroic and epic, in fact, what else would the setting be if were not for that? A hopeless place where despite your best efforts, no good will come back to you.

Hope this helps you see a little bit more of the non dark stuff the setting has, and in fact, that is where it shines brightly.

[Manachild]

So, people use the analogy of LOTR if sauron won, but how much like LOTR is it really?

I'm not really much of a tolkien fan.

thanks for the info!

[smeagol]

So, people use the analogy of LOTR if sauron won, but how much like LOTR is it really?

I'm not really much of a tolkien fan.

thanks for the info!

IMHO, it's close enough to Tolkien to deter you.

Btw, you sound like you're looking for excuses not to buy Midnight.

You're perfectly entitled  to dislike it, but just say it 

[Manachild]

Oh no, I’m just highly cynical 

That isn’t a sarcastic comment either, it’s true.

Also I tend to ask allot of questions because I like to really know what I’m getting into.

And I shouldn’t exactly say that I dislike tolkein.

I don’t like reading LOTR, but the movies were cool probably because they were so well done..

Maybe it’s the presentation.... i don't know.


However Tolkein's brand of fantasy to be generic by these days standards.
While I respect it as being an innovator I think there are better things out there now, even if they are derivative.
I just cant help feeling that way, orcs orcs orcs... blegh

I don’t mean to offend anyone by this message, just stating an opinion.

Things I do like:
Dark Fantasy, but not to the point that everything you do seems useless in the end.
The reason why I like dark fantasy is because I am a gothic fantasy and supernatural/psychological horror fan but I like the epic scale of fantasy.

I own books for Eberron, Forgotten Realms & Greyhawk.

I dont like eberron because in my oppinon its history blows and its lore is boring in general.

I like forgotten realm's world but i feel strangled by the masses of detail for it.

Greyhawk i just find boring in general....

Maybe I’m barking up the wrong tree, but I’m just stating all this so you guys knew what I was looking for when I came here, maybe I came to the wrong place, who knows.....

I may enjoy midnight as a side campaign to what I’m thinking of doing regardless.

I must also state that I’m not new to D&D (been playing since 1999) But I AM a new DM.

I have only DM'd twice before and it was only semi homebrew, and due to some mistakes that I made preparation and execution wise it didn’t turn out that great.

[Nifelhein]

Also I tend to ask allot of questions because I like to really know what I’m getting into.

Well, shoot!

Dark Fantasy, but not to the point that everything you do seems useless in the end.
The reason why I like dark fantasy is because I am a gothic fantasy and supernatural/psychological horror fan but I like the epic scale of fantasy.

That is where Midnight meets LotR easily, many of us focus a lot on the survival side of the game at lower levels, it is just not the orcs or legates, or the people you know that might turn you in, it is also the environment, getting food while others are starving and so on. I have one character who developed some form of madness for being inthe darkness too long, they all are scared to death with legates, not because they are super powerful but because i used some of them veru effectivelly in the past, and they respect them for what they can do.

I must also state that I’m not new to D&D (been playing since 1999) But I AM a new DM.

I have only DM'd twice before and it was only semi homebrew, and due to some mistakes that I made preparation and execution wise it didn’t turn out that great.

If you alow me to say so, do not DM 3.X it is a hell of work to you, really, all players believe itto be the one and true edition because they can customize and it has rules to avoid all that not welcome DM intervention, but what it really does is make the game a mini game with combats taking the blunt of it. If you like that then keep going with it.

Now to your setting comments and al, let me speak a little, Midnight is nothing like any of those settings, it puts magic in a place close to tolkien, mystical, special, it also avoids the standard feeling, orcs are a main force to be reckoned, true, but they are not the only ones, and either where they are the ones to be found, there are man many tribes (many of them named) and they do not get so well with one another, what we love on Midnight orcs is that they are closer to Uruk-hai orcs (the ons from Saruman's forces in the movies) than to the generic beast to be killed from the other settings.

There are important NPCs, true, but the fact remains that left to their own devicees the end result will be a slow changing world and ultimately, the shadow crushes elves and dwarves. Enter the PCs, they change the tides, they take victories against the shadow and make hope come back to the war and dominated races.

How detailed is the setting? Well, the setting book is filled with descriptions of the regions, overall they speka of the whole region, environment, weather, then go into craft and trade typical of that area, then they turn to local religion (usually spirit worshipping), then they speak of key personalities and important locations and it crowns the thing with some plot hooks. If you really want to know how Midnight feels, try reading the following free pdfs made by iain J; Brogan, one of the authors in many Midnight books that came from the fan group (yes, he is and was an AtS poster):

]OK, so players, stay away from now on!

The Death tht Comes in the Night, a demon fom the aruun, this presents well how demons in Midnight are not just another standard opponent and create the unique and special feel around supernatural and magical beings.

The God of the Dell, a small adventure for Midnight it has a small village with some quite unique traits, all of which create a dark feel to it, but it is not to be so, in fact, the ending result would just be to make it more ordinary and not at all dark.

If you like the writing, the style and feel, than Midnight is for you, and there are those who Midnight is not made for, sure thing, if you are one of those, pity, but none can say we haven't tried to picture the setting to you.

[Glacialis]

My binding is very questionable. No response from FFG support, pages falling out, chunks of pages, etc. I'm gentle with it and also have the PDF version, so guess which one I use most often.