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Author Topic: would you allow a...  (Read 14379 times)
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kevperrine
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« on: October 08, 2006, 12:32:15 AM »

It's going away from the prereqs but...
would you allow a GIANTBLOODED Dwarf?

Is there any reasons  for story or for mechanics why you wouldn't allow this?


One of my players is talking about it  and  I'm thinking it would be okay with me...
I'm looking for reasons I'm not thinking about to check before saying okay.

thanks
-kev-
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best,
-kev-
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smeagol
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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2006, 02:27:05 AM »

Giantblooded dwarf?

He could easily be disguised as an orc, but could not pass as a human due to his bulk.

Personally, I find this a bit ridiculous. It allows the player to min-max the character AND to be able to overcome the "fey travel problem".

I'd ask him to provide a *really* good background story to explain (and allow) such a thing in my game!
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Albert
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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2006, 04:51:11 AM »

Well, the descriptions of some of the giant types in the MM is along the line of huge dwarves, short legs, long beards that sort of thing. A giantblooded dwarf could be just that, a man of dwarven proportions, only really big. And that's not something to go unnoticed through occupied lands.

Personally I'd probably not allow, but then I don't think any of my players would want to play something like that.
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Nifelhein
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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2006, 07:27:57 AM »

I don't think I would alow it, it sounds way odd, I know that when I worked with Duke in a giantblooded alternative to first edition we allowed dwarves too, mainly because he wanted, but it always sounded wrong to my ears. There really isn't any good point to back me up, not that I can think of, just this feeling that the mechanic is there based on this feeling I have, and the designers must have had.

A dwarf is not a common medium sized creature, it is a small creature that is so bulky it has a medium size approach inside the system, it still has a slower movement speed, for one thing. At least that is how I always saw them in 3.X D&D.
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« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2006, 08:02:33 AM »

Dwarves are definetly medium-sized, they're just short and slow. Just like Goblins in the MM are small, even though they are as fast as medium races.
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Bleak Knight
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« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2006, 08:49:28 AM »

No, because would you really want this in your group?
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 08:52:22 AM by Bleak Knight » Logged
smeagol
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« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2006, 09:14:36 AM »

This is just hilarious  Cool

+1 cookie for Bleak!  angel
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Bleak Knight
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« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2006, 10:00:06 AM »

Yay! Cookie!

On a more serious note though: Giantblooded dwarf does look a bit too ridiculous, so I wouldn't want it in my game simply for the sake of style. Also, he'd have even more problems fitting into dwarven society that a giantblooded human would have fitting into a human one.

Call me a fascist, but that's my opinion.
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Harrowed
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« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2006, 12:22:40 PM »

I believe Dir said it best in a thread on the old board when discussing a giantblooded halfling. As much as I hate to give Dir credit for making a really good joke, here goes ...

FEAR MY NORMAL SIZING
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Albert
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« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2006, 02:54:25 PM »

Well, if all your players can stand the thought of a giant dwarf I'm sure it could be done. But it would be bad if one players wishes were to ruin the experience for all the others by playing what is a rather ridiculous character.
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Bleak Knight
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« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2006, 03:07:06 PM »

Tell him if he wants to be Giantblooded and dwarf-blooded, he'll have to go with dworg or orc.

Oh and Har, you're absolutely right.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2006, 03:09:13 PM by Bleak Knight » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2006, 04:52:40 PM »

Yeah, i remember that too. One thing is that to me, they have always been small,  am old school in that regard. Tongue
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kevperrine
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« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2006, 08:02:56 PM »

Thanks all...

Yeah - the ONLY concern I have about this idea is it's semi-goofy style.

But I don't think my players would treat it too goofy, they're all pretty cool about not making the game a lampoon...
I'm still considering it.

So now I know there's no *real* game balancing problems with it anyway...
-kev-
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« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2006, 08:58:44 AM »

Hey all!  I thought I'd chime in on this, since I'm the guy asking to play the Giantblooded dwarf.

I'm not totally sold on the idea myself, so don't think I'm running in here trying to change everyone's mind.  But, I do want to present some interesting points to consider for the sake of playing giant-dwarf's advocate.

1. It's rediculous - I don't think it's all that strange.  We're not talking about a dwarf that's 10' tall.  If they, being 4-5' tall on average, are considered medium because of their bulk, then at 6' tall, the dwarf is going to be considered large (at level 10, according to Giantblooded).  Sure, he'll be just barely over the line of Large-sized.  But he won't look like a giant.  He will, however, look like a brick [edit]house, because he'll be 6' wide.  Just like someone who's 8' tall is going to have a hard time fitting through a tunnel, this guy's going to have a hard time fitting through doorjams.  He's not going to look at all like a human, and passing himself off as a dworg isn't going to help him any.

As for how a dwarf could be giantblooded?  Well, you'd think that a giant would be too large to mate with a dwarf.  But, there are shrinking magics in the game, and there's always the possibility of a runt giant being a mere 8' tall.  It's improbable, for sure, but not out of the realm of possibility.

2. It allows the player to min-max - After looking at the Erenlander option, that is far more beneficial to my character than being a dwarf, since he's a defender (won't be wearing armor anyway).  Dwarves get some bonuses, but the ones that affect my character are more easily found in a human.  (So I won't be broken-hearted if Kevin nixes the idea.)  Mainly, the speed difference is a real downer.

3. It would be hard to fit into dwarven society - Yes, this is true.  But I think this is a feature, not a flaw.  Grin

4. Is it "Midnight"? - This is one of my biggest concerns, after of course the fun of the other players (if they think it's stupid even if Kevin allows it, I'll just change my mind).  Kurgen dwarves are pretty big, as dwarves go.  There are dwarves that live in the mountains, above ground.  I think it's totally plausible that at some point, a hill giant got ahold of a clan of dwarves and.... well, now there's giant blood running through the veins of a dwarf family.  Maybe even evil things were done to cause it.  I think this is very Midnight, if you go at it from that direction.  I probably wouldn't feel the same way about the whole concept if it were Forgotten Realms. 

[retarded] Ooo!  I wanna be a Large-sized gully dwarf! [/retarded]
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« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2006, 12:33:16 PM »

Hey, welcome aboard the boat, Bihlbo.

I am not into the blooded references on the paths meaning actual bloodlines, so that is no big deal to me at all, some people around here share this with me, others do not. And you are right,the character may keep dwarven proportions, but to a larger size.

I also feel the group would determine the right choiec in this, even though to e it always will sound odd, extremely.
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Albert
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« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2006, 02:24:38 PM »

Having blooded mean actual bloodlines is okay if it fits in the plotline and the general view a group has of the fantasy world, but ultimately you can just ignore it.
Just like the ancestors of a shadowborn never got themselves impregnated by a shadow you can assume no giants were involved in the making of you giantblood.


Okay Bilhbo. First of all welcome aboard.
Now for your discussion points.
1. If you don't find it ridiculous, and your GM and the rest of the players doesn't either, then this isn't a problem. If some of them do however, then no matter how well you present your arguments the giant-dwarf is gonna hurt the game.
On the purely descriptive side. I'd say the giant dwarf would get at least 7' tall (max height +40% or so I think), and even then he wouldn't be nearly 6' wide. I mean, he'll be heavy set like a living fortress, but 6'wide is quite insane and just as ridiculous as the 10' tall dwarf.

Ok, assuming your GM and other players have no problems with this dwarf flavourwise there's no point in denying the race-path combination.

2. A giant-blooded dwarf fighter, or barbarian would make the most out of the paths powers I think. THe defender is IMO the single class best suited for the path powerwise, but the fact that defeneders are supposed to blend into shadowcontrolled society makes it less viable.
The dwarven speciality is wearing loads of armor and using axes or hammers, as a defender you won't be doing any of that so I agree with you that this is not a powergamers choice.
Once you attain some levels of defender speed stops being a problem.

3. Any defender would be hard to fit into dwarven society. Since their main strengths in combat seem to be their expertedly crafted heavy armor, big axes and traps the defender class alone makes your character fall well beside mainstream dwarven society. The dwarves have been fighting a loosing war for a thousand years, any deviant behaviour that somehow weakens the dwarven situation would be looked down upon IMO, fighting without weapons (I.E. in a less than fully efficient manner) would probably not be accepted. Tossing giantblooded on top of this just make him all the more alien to his kinsmen. At the end of the day though, dwarves are a pragmatic lot, so if your character proves his worth he'll probably be accepted, though definetly stared at.

4. Is it midnight? Midnight is what your group makes it.
However here are some ways to midnightify it:
-The character is the result of breeding experiments conducted by the shadow on/with black blood dwarves, the character or his ancestors somehow made their way back to the main of dwarven society, and years later the giant heritage blossomed in your character.
-The characters mother was raped by an ogre of the shadow, just like numerous of them have been by orcs.
-As the last of a broken clan the characters mother prayed throughout her pregnancy that her child would become a great champion to restore the clan's name and honour. By some cruel twist of fate, or perhaps outside intervention, her son grew great, but not like she had hoped.
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« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2006, 03:13:25 PM »

Quote
3. Any defender would be hard to fit into dwarven society. Since their main strengths in combat seem to be their expertedly crafted heavy armor, big axes and traps the defender class alone makes your character fall well beside mainstream dwarven society.

Oooh. A Dwarven defender could be a warrior (or the child of a warrior) who lost her ancestral wargear in battle or in dishonourable retreat, and has sworn to wear no armour and wield no blade until she has recovered them.
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Albert
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« Reply #17 on: October 09, 2006, 03:20:52 PM »

Good idea Dir, didn't think of that.
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Nifelhein
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« Reply #18 on: October 09, 2006, 03:41:51 PM »

That would be a great character for any game, Dirigible, good one. And Albert has pretty much summarised my thoughts there.
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Bihlbo
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« Reply #19 on: October 09, 2006, 04:12:17 PM »

Oooh. A Dwarven defender could be a warrior (or the child of a warrior) who lost her ancestral wargear in battle or in dishonourable retreat, and has sworn to wear no armour and wield no blade until she has recovered them.

Yeah, that's pretty close to my idea.  My character's clan was once enslaved by a horde of giants.  During this time, the standard practices of master-and-slave were observed (unfortunately), and many dwarven women were "abused" by their masters.  Contrary to what should have been possible (many have speculated that magic was involved), a half-breed was born.  This brought a curse upon the entire clan.  Every couple or three generations, a dwarf is born with the "Curse of the Mountain's Contempt" and is Giantblooded.  Metal becomes antithetical to the Accursed, and in shame he/she must live out his life separated from large items of metal (a buckle or spoon would be okay, but not armor or weapons).  This is especially painful to the spirit of the Accursed because it means he/she can never experience the joy of working with mithril, and even must avert his/her eyes from looking at mithril.

Because the character is marked with the "Curse of the Mountain's Contempt," he personifies the clan's history of enslavement and subjugation at the hands of giants, and is therefore shunned from his people.  Considered lesser-than and lowly in the eyes of his family, he leaves them to make his way in the far more hostile lands of men and elves.



So, this is the way I would justify the very strange situation that my character is in, being a contradictory dwarf-giant who doesn't use weapons or armor.  I realize that the Giantblooded HP doesn't necessarily mean he has "the blood of giants," but I like what it means for the character if it does.  I like playing... contradictions.  Hehehe.   twisted
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Bleak Knight
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« Reply #20 on: October 09, 2006, 09:40:41 PM »

Oxymorons, you mean. Tongue

Still, it seems you have it pretty damn well thought out, and I even like most of your story, except for the giant-rapes-dwarf thing, which is quite disturbing to my young mind. Tongue If no-one in your group finds your character even slightly ridiculous, I say go for it.
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kevperrine
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« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2006, 02:34:01 AM »

Oxymorons, you mean. Tongue

Still, it seems you have it pretty damn well thought out, and I even like most of your story, except for the giant-rapes-dwarf thing, which is quite disturbing to my young mind. Tongue If no-one in your group finds your character even slightly ridiculous, I say go for it.


Bill does a great job at working things out and coming up with great background and roleplaying with the idea.  I never had any doubts that would be a problem.  The only thing I was originally wanting to consider was if there was any balance issues I hadn't thought of with the combo. 

As I see now,  no one's thought of any -  and that's my goal of posting here for consideration.


As for people in the group thinking it is slightly goofy.  I think they'll get a chuckle out of it at first mention and then otherwise consider it very cool.  If you think about it,  it's not *that* odd really.  At least when I picture a "giantblood dwarf"  I think of a 5-6 ft. toall Dwarf that's nearly that in width and girth,  almsot a cube.  Getting that giantblood in with just being a tad taller than the tallest Kurgan Dwarves  but  quite a bit denser,  like a pro football linebacker.  Not just a 6-7 ft. tall dwarf.

Thanks everyone for your ideas for consideration.
Hopefully Bill may play this idea.

He's my player that DID play in the previous Midnight run I GMed,  so I trust him with even a semi-odd concept.  He's also asked to play in BOTH of the two concurrent campaigns I'm running (noted with SPOILERS in other threads).


should be fun
-kev-
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« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2006, 02:58:55 AM »

Quote
I think of a 5-6 ft. toall Dwarf that's nearly that in width and girth, almost a cube.

Try sketching that; I think you'll find it looks a bit silly.

2:1 might be better; they might be half as wide as they are tall. Think of a 6' man with 3' shoulders; chunky. That feels like an approximately correct dwarven physique.
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kevperrine
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« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2006, 03:37:58 AM »

Try sketching that; I think you'll find it looks a bit silly.

2:1 might be better; they might be half as wide as they are tall. Think of a 6' man with 3' shoulders; chunky. That feels like an approximately correct dwarven physique.


heeheh  good point...  here's a photoshoped pic...


it's not perfect, but it's not crazy.
-kev-
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Albert
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« Reply #24 on: October 10, 2006, 09:23:39 AM »

It's nowhere near a cube, that's for sure. A bit like a bearded Terry Tate actually.
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