Variant Legates

[Albert]

Wow, you realy got this discussion going. I forgot about checking this thread for a few days and you've covered skills, spells, domains, astiraxes, the agendas of legates, the fey genocide and basic evil.
This is still a variant mechanics thread for legates right?

Basically the legate is stepping on the toes of the channeler, and the soldier legate on the Fighter right?
In both cases power needs to be reduced. I see you haven't uploaded a new version of the legate class BK, but I'm assuming you have a copy you've been editing on your end every time you've written you'd change something.

I'll go through the classes step by step and try to express what I think needs to be done, and what is already good. This is written with the current system in mind, if you drastically change the layout of the system, with spheres and such, this won’t be as valid when it comes to the parts that involve magic.

Legate first.

BAB, saves and HD. Medium BAB is perfect, this is what channelers also have. Good will is essential and they don't have a reason to have any other good saves. I can't find their HD in there, either I'm partially blind or you forgot. Either way HD should probably be 1d8.
Add HD, probably d8

Skills. 6+int per level is too much. But since fighter get 4+, I'd say 4+ is the absolute minimum for any class from now on.
-Now the skill list: they get craft, profession and speak language along with everyone else.
-They also gain every social skill: Gather info, Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense motive and Intimidate. They’re supposed to be silvertongued(bluff and diplomacy), scary(intimidate) able to root our lies and heresy(sense motive), but not really the types to chummy up with strangers for information(gather info). Gather info has to go.
-They get Spellcraft and Concentration, wich are a must for spellcasters.
-They get read/write wich is fitting.
-Then three non-knowledge skills remain on the list. Heal, Decipher script and appraise, none of wich I see as essential legate skills. Heal might fit with umbral catholicons or the sisters, but could be added as a class skill for those that choose healing or inquisition as their domains. I’m surprised to find Decipher script there at all, perhaps add to to the list for those that choose the knowledge domain. Appraise: doesn’t fit at all IMO, not as a class skill anyway.
-Knowledge skills All fit, and I’ve never deemed knowledge skills as too powerfull, I always take a few ranks when I make characters or villains, but it’s more of a story thing than a gamebreaking thing.
Reduce skill points to 4+int. Remove Appraise, Decipher Script and Heal from the list of class skills, but device som way to add heal or decipher

Simple weapon proficiencies, great. No armor or shields, great. Soldier legates can wear platemail and smite foes with longswords.

The basic system for spellcasting, darks spark, rituals, divine energy and spells known is much like the Channeler, without the school feats, but with corruption instead of con-drain(con-drain seems a lot better IMO). This does make them a lot more like the channeler systemwise, but this is only fitting since this is what you wanted with this class. Check and good.
Bonus feats: There are too many of them, but the selection is a good one. I can see how class abilities easily even out with one per level, but really, that isn’t as important as balancing things. Perhaps one at 2nd and every 4th level thereafter?
Reduce number of bonus feats

Domains: As they are written now Legates will get too many domain powers. The number of domains give them knowledge of many spells however, and the powers are very fitting to the legate archetypes.
Domains allowed: I know you want legates to have great flexibility in spellcasting, but some of those domains just don’t fit in midnight, or for legates, namely:
Air, Earth, Fire and Water. Elementalism isn’t such a big part of MN mythology, and if it  is it’s more of a channeler thing.
Animals: Speaking with animals and having furry little pets. The connection between legates and animals is the Astirax possession ability.
Good: for obvious reasons
Luck: Izrador just isn’t the right god for luck.
Plant: Maybe if Aradil had her own cleric class
Protection: Izrador is more about striking out against the enemy than protecting his own.
Sun: The SHADOW, well it’s obvious.
Travel: Spell selection is too non-midnighty

This leaves: Chaos, Death, Destruction, Evil, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Magic, Strength, Trickery and War. As well as the special ones from MN2, more than enough.
Limit the maximum number of domain powers to 2, just like D&D clerics, but grant spells known for all the selected domains. Limit available domains.

Temple Legate, Greater Legate: The powers are sort of unnescessary, as high-level legates who rise to such power will have put many ranks in those skills, being better than his lesser brethren by that alone.
Remove this

Legate powers: Uses per day? Good. These are powerfull, but legates get a pretty limited number of them per day.

The Mastery of… powers Good, fitting IMO. Mastery of spirits should be called, and work exactly like, Mastery of the unnatural.
Rename Mastery of spirits

Shroud of fear, since it demands a standard action every turn it’s balanced. Perhaps it can be disrupted by a failed concentration check on damage?

Veil of shadow: Scary,  but fitting, and not on itself gamebreaking.

Inspire Fury: Different from the other abilities, and not as fitting IMO, but as you said, it works for voices of shadow.

TIER 2

… Mastery: These three work excellent, legates gain these powers so slowly that increasing all types of turning with one power works ok.
Improved fury and whispers of shadow: ok.

Shroud of terror: Too powerfull the dc should be 10 + (1/2)class level + cha mod instead. Also, is this in addition to shroud of fear, or completely different?
lower dc

Darkened veil: Awesome

TIER 3

Mastery of mortals: Enables lvl 12 legates to rebuke, but not command, lvl 6 humanoids. Not gamebreakin per se, it just makes high level legates all the more scary for the common folk, wich is okay.

Mass whispers: Like the mass suggestion ability of bards and the like, if it wasn’t broken then it isn’t now. You forgot to list prereqs btw, but I can guess what they were supposed to be.
Mention prereqs

Blight: since you’ll have to be lvl 15 to get it, it works for me.


Things that aren’t mentioned:

Astiraxes: they are allies, fickle and invisible but still. Grant them the ability to communicate telepathically with those who have the dark spark feat. Perhaps we could write up a few advanced astiraxes, now that their advancement is independent rather than tied to the legate that has them as a class ability.
Lvl 10 Legates with mastery of the unnatural, Heightend mastery and confident mastery has a pretty decent chance of commanding a few basic ones, but a free astirax that just followed the legate out of respect, or for some other reason would be much more scary.

IC impact from game mechanic choices: such as what happens with legates with the healing domain, or what are the different roles of a greater legate who can blight and one who can turn mortals?

There, I’d allow that legate in my campaign.

Now for the soldier Legate. Hell this is getting lengthy, I only hope you’re gonna make use of some of my suggestions, any way it’s not as long as you and Nifs counterquotationdiscussion yet.

BAB, Saves, HD. Full BAB is good. For balance’s sake will save should be poor. HD should be d8
Reduce will save, HD d8

Skills: Number of points is good. Skill list is exactly like fighter + Knowledge spirits and concentration. Perhaps read/write as a class skill would lessen the differences between the two legate types? But I really can’t see why he needs that. No change needed.

Proficiencies: Just like they should be.

Spellcasting: Basically okay.
Domains: Same as with the ordinary legate.

Bonus feats and Shadow Traits: The soldier legate gains a total of 13, and the 7 traits are more powerfull than feats, the fighter gains 14 feats in midnight, and although he has a slightly higer hd he doesn’t gain any spellcasting for free. Thus the soldier legate gains too much.
Maybe half the number of feats (lvl 3, 9 and 15) would be better?
Reduce the number of feats

Knighthood and Grandmaster: Only leave the leadership bonus. Also, Knighthood goes under the name “Soldier Legate” in the table.
Remove most benefits, or completely. Change name in table

Finally the traits:

Smiting: As Nif said, you probably shouldn’t allow more than one smite in a single attack. I don’t know if the swift action mechanic is open content, but simply saying only one type of smite can be used in a single attack should suffice.
Limit the number if smite types per attack to one.

Aura of fear: You don’t mention how it is activated.
Mention how it is activated

Ghost Armor and Imbue Weapon, good

TIER 2

Aura of Terror: Too powerfull, perhaps the panicked condition ends once the Soldier Legate stops expending Standard actions?
Limit somehow[/b9

Shadow Armor: I’m assuming this ability also requires a standard action to activate, but you don’t mention this.
Mention how it is activated

Drain magic: Nif had some fears about this one, but I disagree. Since this either requires having a hand free to touch the spellcaster, or the imbue weapon ability, I can’t see how it being a touch attack and not a standard one is so bad. Granted; Smite, Drain, Imbue for +wis to hit, + lvl to damage + 1d3 SE is one hell of an attack, but the legate can only do it once or twice a day.

Rebuke undead: okay

Warrior of Shadow: I’m assuming this is to replace the feat of the same name, you should mention that.
Mention how it replaces the feat of the same name

TIER 3

Become the undead: This one is pretty cool. You need to explain how it is activated, and if there’s a quick way to activate this along with shadow armor, like with ghost armor.
How is it activated? How does it stack with it’s prereqs ghost armor and shadow armor?

Life drain: The prereqs could be just Warrior of Shadow, since that one already demands a smite, and this ability does not function without a smite.
Does this take an extra use per day of your shadow traits, or does it just improve your smiting traits? It should take an extra use since it’s at least 9 damage, and could easily be a lot more.
Clarify uses per day in conjunction with this power

Spiritslayer: So cool, and oh so ok balance wise.



General Divine spellcasting:
Corruption: I like it, it limit the powers of the legates more than con drain limits channelers.
I’m not sure if I understand the system:
If a wis 17 leg lvl 6 were to cast spell levels totalling 15 (that’s 6 points of corruption) in a single combat, sat down and prayed until the corruption went away wich of the two following would happen:
1: He’d take 6 level checks dcs: 18, 18, 18, 19, 20, 21 ( if he succeeds with all of them that is) Gaining one permanent point of corruption for every failed check.
2: He’d spend 6 hours in meditation making one dc 18 check to remove it all, or gain a single point of permanent corruption if he failed.
If 1 is correct dc should be lower, if 2 is correct this is fine

I don’t like the fact that “everyone” becomes allips after a while (that’s just like the taint rules we hate). Just say they return as some form of lost.

Ceremonial casting: Just like channelled ritual casting ought to be, great.

[Bleak Knight]

Nifelhein

You said you wanted to expand the list, I know there only two in Midnight, but the wizard/sorcerer sublist from the core rules are the most dangerous place to look for, just pointed that out. Spheres come from D&Ds history, in 2nd edition, the one I am msot familiar with, they were to the divine spellcasters what the schools were to the arcane spellcaster, that is why i suggested the name.

Hmmm. I must have made myself unclear. I was not thinking of expanding the legate's spell list, merely placing all spells into groups.

I like domain powers, what i meant is that most probably pheres or whatever name it ends up with will be more numerous than schools of magic, in that case the counterpart of Spell Focus for divine magic should be Sphere Focus, and given its more limited scope the feat would need a little boost, i would say that one feat would be the one to grant the domain power and still give the +1 to save DCs for the sphere spells.

That is what i was thinking, divine spell focus aka Sphere Focus grants +1 to spell save DCs and a domain power.

Hmmm. Ok, I'll see how it turns out thought, but I wasn't thinking of making Spheres more limited than spell schools.

Then i think it needs a little rewording to make it clear, because I agree with you, but it can be a little misleading as it is now. Is it possible to use two or three smite types at the same time though? I would say activating them is the so called swift action, thus no two could be used at the same round.

I'll just add a sentence to them saying no two smites can be used at the same time.

Well, we disagree and I don't see we getting any close here, I make a large distance between Izrador and his agenda and legates and their agenda, so I quit this discussion now.

I know what evil in D&D menas that is why I said we disagree in the way that is stated in canon, meaning I don't think your take is based on canon, and you don't think mine is. so we won't get anywhere, and you are right, it does not further the thread in question, we can discuss it some other time.

Fair enough.

Legates are more limited in their use of the spells granted, they must attend ceremonies and they are inside an order that expects something out of them. Core rules clerics don't, and your version has doen awya with the praying at a temple at intervals too. That is a pretty high loss of pwoer in my opinion.

Praying at a temple is demanded so seldomly I consider it almost non-existent.

No, but telepathy would allow an astirax to know if ther eis people nearby, so it does make him more capable of walking around, specially in cities. But whatever, this doesn't bother me that much, I as mainly pointing at it becase i don't think it is a perfect solution.

Fair enough. I'm happy with it though.

Albert

Basically the legate is stepping on the toes of the channeler, and the soldier legate on the Fighter right? In both cases power needs to be reduced. I see you haven't uploaded a new version of the legate class BK, but I'm assuming you have a copy you've been editing on your end every time you've written you'd change something.

Correct.

Legate first.

BAB, saves and HD. Medium BAB is perfect, this is what channelers also have. Good will is essential and they don't have a reason to have any other good saves. I can't find their HD in there, either I'm partially blind or you forgot. Either way HD should probably be 1d8.
Add HD, probably d8

Roger, thanks for spotting that.

Hmm, now that I think of it, I am considering d6...

Skills. 6+int per level is too much. But since fighter get 4+, I'd say 4+ is the absolute minimum for any class from now on.
-Now the skill list: they get craft, profession and speak language along with everyone else.
-They also gain every social skill: Gather info, Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense motive and Intimidate. They’re supposed to be silvertongued(bluff and diplomacy), scary(intimidate) able to root our lies and heresy(sense motive), but not really the types to chummy up with strangers for information(gather info). Gather info has to go.
-They get Spellcraft and Concentration, wich are a must for spellcasters.
-They get read/write wich is fitting.
-Then three non-knowledge skills remain on the list. Heal, Decipher script and appraise, none of wich I see as essential legate skills. Heal might fit with umbral catholicons or the sisters, but could be added as a class skill for those that choose healing or inquisition as their domains. I’m surprised to find Decipher script there at all, perhaps add to to the list for those that choose the knowledge domain. Appraise: doesn’t fit at all IMO, not as a class skill anyway.
-Knowledge skills All fit, and I’ve never deemed knowledge skills as too powerfull, I always take a few ranks when I make characters or villains, but it’s more of a story thing than a gamebreaking thing.
Reduce skill points to 4+int. Remove Appraise, Decipher Script and Heal from the list of class skills, but device som way to add heal or decipher

Wilco.

Bonus feats: There are too many of them, but the selection is a good one. I can see how class abilities easily even out with one per level, but really, that isn’t as important as balancing things. Perhaps one at 2nd and every 4th level thereafter?
Reduce number of bonus feats

I'm looking into this already.

Domains: As they are written now Legates will get too many domain powers. The number of domains give them knowledge of many spells however, and the powers are very fitting to the legate archetypes.
Domains allowed: I know you want legates to have great flexibility in spellcasting, but some of those domains just don’t fit in midnight, or for legates, namely:
Air, Earth, Fire and Water. Elementalism isn’t such a big part of MN mythology, and if it  is it’s more of a channeler thing.
Animals: Speaking with animals and having furry little pets. The connection between legates and animals is the Astirax possession ability.
Good: for obvious reasons
Luck: Izrador just isn’t the right god for luck.
Plant: Maybe if Aradil had her own cleric class
Protection: Izrador is more about striking out against the enemy than protecting his own.
Sun: The SHADOW, well it’s obvious.
Travel: Spell selection is too non-midnighty

This leaves: Chaos, Death, Destruction, Evil, Healing, Knowledge, Law, Magic, Strength, Trickery and War. As well as the special ones from MN2, more than enough.
Limit the maximum number of domain powers to 2, just like D&D clerics, but grant spells known for all the selected domains. Limit available domains.

Domains will be removed, to be replaced with spheres or something similar.

Temple Legate, Greater Legate: The powers are sort of unnescessary, as high-level legates who rise to such power will have put many ranks in those skills, being better than his lesser brethren by that alone.
Remove this

Already done.

Legate powers: Uses per day? Good. These are powerfull, but legates get a pretty limited number of them per day.

The Mastery of… powers Good, fitting IMO. Mastery of spirits should be called, and work exactly like, Mastery of the unnatural.
Rename Mastery of spirits

Renamed Mastery of the Trapped, since it is somewhat different from Mastery of the Unnatural.

Shroud of fear, since it demands a standard action every turn it’s balanced. Perhaps it can be disrupted by a failed concentration check on damage?

Good idea.

Shroud of terror: Too powerfull the dc should be 10 + (1/2)class level + cha mod instead. Also, is this in addition to shroud of fear, or completely different?
lower dc

Roger on the DC. This ability activates with Shroud of Fear, meaning a legate with Shroud of Terror using Shroud of Fear causes both these effects.

Mass whispers: Like the mass suggestion ability of bards and the like, if it wasn’t broken then it isn’t now. You forgot to list prereqs btw, but I can guess what they were supposed to be.
Mention prereqs

Prerequisites added.

Things that aren’t mentioned:

Astiraxes: they are allies, fickle and invisible but still. Grant them the ability to communicate telepathically with those who have the dark spark feat. Perhaps we could write up a few advanced astiraxes, now that their advancement is independent rather than tied to the legate that has them as a class ability.
Lvl 10 Legates with mastery of the unnatural, Heightend mastery and confident mastery has a pretty decent chance of commanding a few basic ones, but a free astirax that just followed the legate out of respect, or for some other reason would be much more scary.

If anyone does some advanced astiraxes, I'll be happy to include them.

IC impact from game mechanic choices: such as what happens with legates with the healing domain, or what are the different roles of a greater legate who can blight and one who can turn mortals?

I was thinking about leaving that stuff to the individual GMs.

BAB, Saves, HD. Full BAB is good. For balance’s sake will save should be poor. HD should be d8
Reduce will save, HD d8

Done.

Skills: Number of points is good. Skill list is exactly like fighter + Knowledge spirits and concentration. Perhaps read/write as a class skill would lessen the differences between the two legate types? But I really can’t see why he needs that. No change needed.

Read/Write and Spellcraft have been added anyway.

Bonus feats and Shadow Traits: The soldier legate gains a total of 13, and the 7 traits are more powerfull than feats, the fighter gains 14 feats in midnight, and although he has a slightly higer hd he doesn’t gain any spellcasting for free. Thus the soldier legate gains too much.
Maybe half the number of feats (lvl 3, 9 and 15) would be better?
Reduce the number of feats

Knighthood and Grandmaster: Only leave the leadership bonus. Also, Knighthood goes under the name “Soldier Legate” in the table.
Remove most benefits, or completely. Change name in table

Removed.

Smiting: As Nif said, you probably shouldn’t allow more than one smite in a single attack. I don’t know if the swift action mechanic is open content, but simply saying only one type of smite can be used in a single attack should suffice.
Limit the number if smite types per attack to one.

Limited.

Aura of fear: You don’t mention how it is activated.
Mention how it is activated

Activation time is now a move action.

Aura of Terror: Too powerfull, perhaps the panicked condition ends once the Soldier Legate stops expending Standard actions?
Limit somehow

This is basically the same ability as a legate's Shroud of Terror, but more limited in range.

Shadow Armor: I’m assuming this ability also requires a standard action to activate, but you don’t mention this.
Mention how it is activated

Activation time added.

Drain magic: Nif had some fears about this one, but I disagree. Since this either requires having a hand free to touch the spellcaster, or the imbue weapon ability, I can’t see how it being a touch attack and not a standard one is so bad. Granted; Smite, Drain, Imbue for +wis to hit, + lvl to damage + 1d3 SE is one hell of an attack, but the legate can only do it once or twice a day.

Roger, I'll leave it as it originally was, then.

Warrior of Shadow: I’m assuming this is to replace the feat of the same name, you should mention that.
Mention how it replaces the feat of the same name

It has been done.

Become the undead: This one is pretty cool. You need to explain how it is activated, and if there’s a quick way to activate this along with shadow armor, like with ghost armor.
How is it activated? How does it stack with it’s prereqs ghost armor and shadow armor?

Activation time standard action, can be done simultaneously as Ghost or Shadow, and stacks with them. Added.

Life drain: The prereqs could be just Warrior of Shadow, since that one already demands a smite, and this ability does not function without a smite.
Does this take an extra use per day of your shadow traits, or does it just improve your smiting traits? It should take an extra use since it’s at least 9 damage, and could easily be a lot more.
Clarify uses per day in conjunction with this power

I try to list all prerequisites leading up to ability, just as it's done with feats. Yes, it requires an extra use. This has been added.

General Divine spellcasting:
Corruption: I like it, it limit the powers of the legates more than con drain limits channelers.
I’m not sure if I understand the system:
If a wis 17 leg lvl 6 were to cast spell levels totalling 15 (that’s 6 points of corruption) in a single combat, sat down and prayed until the corruption went away wich of the two following would happen:
1: He’d take 6 level checks dcs: 18, 18, 18, 19, 20, 21 ( if he succeeds with all of them that is) Gaining one permanent point of corruption for every failed check.
2: He’d spend 6 hours in meditation making one dc 18 check to remove it all, or gain a single point of permanent corruption if he failed.
If 1 is correct dc should be lower, if 2 is correct this is fine

One roll.

I don’t like the fact that “everyone” becomes allips after a while (that’s just like the taint rules we hate). Just say they return as some form of lost.

Modified it to “undead creature” instead.

Whew, this is one long post!

EDIT: Goddamned HTML.

[Albert]

This is basically the same ability as a legate's Shroud of Terror, but more limited in range.

No, see, in the Legate version you never mentioned how they needed to make a save every turn, or that the ability could be extended to several turns, wich is something that only applies if you do see shroud of terror as just an increase in the power of shroud of fear, but not if you read it like a new ability, like I did. If it's one save a round to avoid panick for the regualr legate as well they're both too powerfull and should be limited somehow. Perhaps a single save makes you immune to the panick part for the rest of the day, just like most fear auras do in D&D.

Also for skills, I spoke up for the removal of Gather Information, but forgot to include this in my bold summary of changes, not sure if you got that.



I'm glad all that some of my nitpicking brought results.

About the sphere thing, is it really worth it to make a whole new system from scratch to give the legates spell knowledge and a few powers, when the domains as they are do an ok and very similar job?
I'll see if I can conjure up a few advanced Astiraxes btw, I'll introduce them in a different thread once I have something working.

[Bleak Knight]

Hmmm. Ok, I'll go with "if you succeed, you are immune for one day" then.

I caught the Gather Info.

Thanks for the Astiraxes, and rest assured that spheres are a long way down the list.

[Albert]

I'll be squeeling with joy if you were to present the edited variant legate for joinkification before you spend a week writing spheres.

[Bleak Knight]

I'll consider it. But only if you record the happy squealing and send it to me so I can use it as a start-up sound on my computer.

[Albert]

I'll see what I can do.

[Albert]

Bumpity

Noone else has more to say on this awesome work? Thoughts on spheres?

Also, I'm awaiting for your updated version Bleak.

[Bleak Knight]

Bah. I've forgotten to upload it.

Coming right up!

...

*formats* Mumble, grumble...borders...grumble...*finishes formatting*

Here ya go. I might have missed some stuff. If I have, please tell me.

[Albert]

Great, I'll be using these from now on, goodbye old legate class, all hail the new ones weehaw.

So, d6 for HD for both of the classes, I can understand for the legate, but soldier legate? Is it a typo?
Soldier legate still has all his bonus feats, don't know if you agreed when I said it was too many.
Still no mention on how aura of fear is activated.

You know what's wrong when I can only find three errors Bleak, very little. Awsome work as alwa..most of the time.

[Smarts]

I have to say that d6 for HD is to little for any soldier, no matter how magical he is. No point in healing magic if you don't live long enough to use it.

When it comes do domains I don't think Magic is fitting, or at least not as fitting as Trickery. After all magic is supposed to be his weakness isn't it?
And decieving men to do all sorts of evil is kinda cool.

[Bleak Knight]

HD d6 for soldier legate is a typo.
Roger on the feats (thought I'd fixed 'em, must have done it only for legates), and roger on Aura of Fear.

Also Smarts, Magic has always been one of Izrador's domains. I'll be happy to add trickery though.

[Smarts]

Also Smarts, Magic has always been one of Izrador's domains. I'll be happy to add trickery though.

I still think it doesn't fit

[Albert]

I heartily agree, but looking up the MN1 legate I found that magic has been one of the shadow's domains from day one. I honestly thought trickery would make the list though.

[Bleak Knight]

Legates v2.1 is now on-line.

EDIT: Available from the first post of this thread.

Oh, and Albert! I expect to hear that squealing soon!

[Glacialis]

What? No squealing?

The PCs in my campaign haven't had any legate encounters except for trying to shoot one in magical full plate while they were 1st level -- and I'm using armor as DR. At level 2.9, they're still very fearful of the world around them. I've thrown some wicked things at them and they're scared. The players are creeped out. I rejoice! This looks like great material to add to a campaign, especially since I haven't used legates against the PCs before.

One question I do have: the Eyes of Izrador are a group that, IIRC, is supposed to be mostly made up of rogues. I personally believe that they should have legate levels as well, and be granted the Trickery domain. I don't however think that standard legates should have access to Trickery, but in the end, does it really matter? If that's how they operate and they get results, I'm sure Izrador won't be complaining.

I'm also looking for Evil Legate-y Rogue-y feats and spells. Any ideas? I may also tweak the base legate classes with more tricky powers, posting the results here for perusal. After I get the backup site up, of course.

Edit: I liked Legates being able to cast many more spells than Channelers. True, their new abilities mostly make up for it but I'd still like to see a little more spellcasting ability from them. It's just another tool that the resistance may have, but the bad guys have more of. Maybe bonus spell energy when a Domain is gained? As abilities granting 3/6/9 extra SE?

[Albert]

If one were to increase the DE now (Divine energy for divine spells you know), one would have to tone down the class abilities alot. And as it is it looks balanced, so if you want to add lots of more spells cast, you'll have to rewrite a lot of the class. Unless of course you want the legate class to be superior to all PC-classes.

[Glacialis]

Unless of course you want the legate class to be superior to all PC-classes.

Actually, I kinda do. In pure spell output, a D&D Cleric/standard Legate blows Channelers out of the water. I'd like for some of that awesome might to still be in there, but I'm not sure what could easily be changed.

Maybe an ability series that increases Wisdom's contribution to SE?

[Albert]

If you just want them to be better than PC-classes, then double( then triple, then quadruple) the divine energy bonus from wisdom on lvls 5 10 an 15. Since the SE system is sort of front-loaded the bonus should wait until after the first few levels, but there's no reason to make this a small bonus if you want a cleric-like amount of spells, along with all those class abilities. This would make the class much more powerfull than all the other classes though, since the cleric doesn't have nearly as many skills or abilites as these classes.

[Glacialis]

I'm of the opinion that people powered by a genuinely divine entity are going to be more powerful than whatever more earthly sources of power all those others are depending on. I'm not sure what the solution is, but you're right. SE-system benefits are front loaded. What you recommend is certainly plausible.

[Bleak Knight]

There is a feat that grants +2 divine energy in that pdf, you know... Aside from that, I'm not going to give it more raw spell power. Perhaps more spells, but I think it's quite good right now.

As for the Eyes of Izrador, well, there are other tricksters around too. There's been a lot of fallen heroes throughout the history of Eredane.

IMO, choice of domain should determine order, order shoudn't determine choice of domain. That's personal preference though, so I'll keep it to my house rules. Trickery is added, since the Eyes of Izrador have never been described in game-mechanics.

[Albert]

To be clear, the stuff I've said in my last few posts are recommendations to glacialis, who wants legates that are more powerfull than other classes, and not recomendations for how I'd like these classes to be in my game or any game I play in.

Glacialis, a thing to remember. If you're using CRs or EL or whatever it is WotC is using now, CR will not be equal to class level if you're NPCs are taking a class that is a lot more powerfull than ordinary pc-classes.

[Glacialis]

Isn't the Legate class already more powerful than classes resistance PCs have access to?

[Bleak Knight]

Nope. At least not in theory. All classes are supposed to be balanced.

EDIT: Oh, and if you want really scary legates, just give them really many levels. Really.

[Albert]

Mechanically the legate isn't more powerfull than the PC-classes in MN2, but rp-wise I guess the Legate title alone would make you more powerfull than a PC of your own level, no matter what class-combination.