Yet another Pathfinder-Midnight thread

[arnon]

I'll add a thread of my own... 

So it looks like i'll be running a Midnight campaign soon (Yay!! still about 4-5 month out, but that is the plan)

At first i thought of running it under a Savage Worlds conversion but noticed that i'm spending too much time on the conversion i decided to drop the idea and stick with d20. But then, thanks mainly to Doomed Hero's game, i decided to take a closer look at Pathfinder and found that they incorporated many of the house rules i have been using myself (and by many i mean almost everything).

Now from the threads around this here forum I know that there is no real problem in mixing up the Midnight classes (defender, wildlander, channeler) with the Pathfinder classes (barbarian, rogue, fighter).

But what i would ask, from those familiar with Pathfinder, is how compatible are the NPCs and Monsters scattered throughout the Midnight book? I do not really want, or have the time, to sit down and rewrite them (if it's a core monster i can always take it from the Pathfinder SRD site).

Could I use them as they are or would they be "underpowered" compared to an NPC of the same level under Pathfinder rules.

Another point that might be worth mentioning: I will probably cap advancement at level 6 (as per Epic6 rules), and the level progression will be a slow one. So maybe all this balancing wouldn't matter that much since we are at any way staying at relatively low levels...

cheers,
-arnon

[Doomed Hero]

You shouldn't run into a problem. For important NPC's, just give them a +2 stat adjustment in their primary stat. For ones that you want to particularly shine, give them a bonus feat or two.

For monsters, Pathfinder runs at a +1 or +2 CR over 3.5. If you just advance the monsters by a hit dice or two you should be good.

[arnon]

For important NPC's, just give them a +2 stat adjustment in their primary stat. For ones that you want to particularly shine, give them a bonus feat or two.

I think i will leave the races as they are, i think they are fine just the way they are... or would there be an argument against that?


Oh, and did you give the fighter the "Warrior's Way" in addition to the Culture Fighting?

[Doomed Hero]

Races in pathfinder are all balanced at an overall +2 bonus, usually with a bonus to two stats and a penalty to one.

As for the second question, yes I did. I also give rogues a bonus midnight Rogue Technique feat at 4th, but that's mostely because I like those feats.

[nightflier]

Sorry to jump in, but not all races in Pathfinder have overall +2 bonus. For instance, orcs have - 2. I would recommend having +2, +2, -2 and +4, -2, -2 races in the game.

[Doomed Hero]

I did say most. Orcs aren't a standard PC race and a +4 is more powerful than a pair of +2s. It needs a greater drawback.

[arnon]

But is it absolutely necessary, or is it just for the players to have another bonus?

[Doomed Hero]

Certain races were *really* predisposed to certain classes, especially when it came to the mental stats. If you were a spellcaster, you basically never wanted to be a dwarf (for example). The designers of Pathfinder, in order to push more character diversity, decided that the core player races should generally have a bonus to a mental stat in addition to the usual bonus to a physical stat so you saw more racial diversity among casting classes.

[Volcarthe]

If you were a spellcaster, you basically never wanted to be a dwarf

There is no spellcasting penalty for being a Dwarf Wizard, Cleric, or Druid.  Three of the four primary spellcasting classes.

I'm not sure where your comment is coming from.

[nightflier]

DH was talking about that Elves were predisposed to be wizards in 3.5 more than any other race. Also, Dwarves didn't have their +2 to Wisdom back then, so they weren't exactly Cleric or Druid material. Their +2 to Constitution is not that big of a deal for 3.5 Cleric or Druid. Back then, Cleric would need Wisdom more than Constitution and Druid would need Strength even more than Wisdom. Pathfinder brought a certain sense of balance to standard race/class combo.

For Midnight, though, some other things should be taken into consideration. For instance, Pathfider Half-Orc is not well suited to replace Dworg. On the other hand, Pathfinder Orcs, even with their -2 total ability modifier may be just a bit more powerful than Midnight Orc.

[Volcarthe]

When did players start considering the lack of a bonus to be a penalty?
a -2 to Charisma isn't a -2 to Intelligence or Wisdom.  The only complications a dwarf would have for spellcasting is if he were Charisma-based.

Pathfinder didn't bring balance, they just upscaled races in the same fashion 4e upscaled them.

[Doomed Hero]

You're looking at it the wrong way.

Bonuses to physical stats are generally more beneficial to martial classes, meaning that the races that have physical bonuses are far more likely to be picked for those classes. How many elven rogues or finesse-fighters did we see even though their favored class was wizard? Mechanically speaking, if you weren't playing a human spellcaster it meant you were deliberately underpowering yourself for the sake of flavor (which should never be a trade you have to make).

A +2 in a mental stat means a +1 to your spell DC's, which are a spellcaster's bread and butter, and are *really* hard to come by. Spell Focus only effects one school. In order to raise DC's across the board that attribute adjustment is required, which means high-level magic items or playing a race that has a natural bonus to casting stats (which in 3.5 was basically non-existent)

Now that most races have a bonus to casting stats we're finally seeing non-human casters that can operate at the same level as their human counterparts, and that is good.

[Volcarthe]

You're looking at it the wrong way.

Mechanically speaking, if you weren't playing a human spellcaster it meant you were deliberately underpowering yourself for the sake of flavor (which should never be a trade you have to make).

again, unless you're playing a character with a penalty to an ability, you aren't hindering yourself with that class.

there is no way to argue that the mechanics of +0 equals -2.

[Doomed Hero]

I don't think that's what I was saying in any way. What I was saying was neatly summed up in my last sentence.

If you want to play an Dwarven Sorcerer, that's fine. Everyone's aware you're shooting yourself in the foot by doing it, but it could be an interesting and exciting character regardless. That aside, it's pretty self explanatory why you didn't see many players make those kinds of decisions. It's that same reasoning that led many players *toward* the elven rogue. That bonus goes a long way toward influencing character generation decisions.

The reason humans made better casters than every other race wasn't because of bonuses. The playing field was level. No one had bonuses to mental stats, so, in a situation where no race offered any kind of attribute advantage to spellcasting, a bonus feat made a huge difference. No other race had *any* abilities that could influence or boost spellcasting, but a bonus feat could let you start with a little extra oomph in some of your spells (or all of them if your GM allowed Spellcasting Prodigy)

[Volcarthe]

So sorcerer is the only spellcasting class?

Ok, now I see where you're coming from.

Because in the D&D worlds I play in, there are other classes who are primary spellcasters who don't rely on charisma.

[Doomed Hero]

Dude, you're being very aggressive about this. I was using that as an example.

In 3.5 there were zero races with bonuses to casting attributes. There were a few with penalties. Because of that, Humans were the most common choice for casters. That's not even an opinion. That's a fact drawn from thousands of play reports. Giving out a couple of bonuses to other races was an attempt by the pathfinder designers to break that trend.

I don't see why you seem to be so upset about this?

[nightflier]

Anyway, back to topic...

Now, in Pathfinder, there are races that even have bonuses to two mental stats and penalty to one physical (Changeling). I've asked James Jacobs about the races from 3,5 times that have +4 bonuses and his opinion is that that kind of stat bonus can very possibly be game-breaking. I suppose that's why Pathfinder Orcs have -2 total.

I'm using Pathfinder for my Midnight games and I have made certain changes to the races, even introduced some new ones. Since the legates are now even more powerful than before, the additional +2 to one ability gives the players significant chance of surviving lower levels of the game. On the other hand, those races with +4 bonus to ability score tend to be powerhouses in their chose class, so the two -2 penalties balance them rather nicely.

Since I'm having internet issues for quite some time, I have decided to restart my RL Midnight campaign. Most of the characters are 16th level right now, including the channeler, who is one of the surviving original members of the party. His +4 to Intelligence which he got as a race bonus at character creation is a great boon to him - even at 16th level.

[Gabboge]

Holy crap. LvL 16 in midnight is pretty impressive, at this point they must have some high ranking shadow operatives on their trail.

I have never known a +2 or +4 to make that much of a difference but I guess that's because I have never run anything straight out of a book. For me, having Darkvision means much much more then +4.

In my experience in midnight people who used a +2 or +4 to min max their character were powerhouses but only in certain cases. The people who were strength based had a really hard time when it came down to anything sneaky. Dexy people got owned by fear effects and anything not reflex based. My point being that it's not game breaking because it really becomes a nitch not a crutch.

[nightflier]

Well, the game lasted for two years, I think, with two very long sessions per week, most weeks. The party started with eight PCs and one DMPC. By the time it went on a pause, only 3 members of the original party were in the game, including the DMPC. The last encounter left five members of the party permanently dead.

Now, my players are clamoring to continue with the game. They want to re-invent their characters using new rules from Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic, and some other stuff as well, and those who's characters died want to create new ones.

Since one of the changes from standard Midnight in my game is that the Whisper has gained sentience and became something between an elder spirit and demigod, one of the guys, who played a druid, wants to play a living plant. I may even let him.

[Gabboge]

It just always seemed to me that (At least among the resistance) that the number of people who were above lvl 15 had to be less then 2,000. Probably less, even less so with heroic paths. There has to be a shadows top wanted list.

I guess it depends on how hopeful your game is.

[arnon]

...~Revive~...

thanks for the answers and enlightenment

I'd ask the honored members of the forum to also take note of the last part of my first post, the one pertaining to perhaps running the game using the Epic6 (E6) rules.

Does anyone have any experience with it? What do you think?

-arnon

[Luiniel Blades]

Hey Arnon, I've been in a few games with epic 6 as it's level cap and it's been pretty awesome.  It really makes you think about taking all the advantages you can and more about working together ( i.e. Aid another, flanking, cover bonuses, your group being the ones to take the surprise round of combat, winning initiative, using your move action to drag up a prone party member off the ground, ect.) and it definitely adds more to the gritty realism of the game, and even when things might slow down people will be more likely to pay attention to what's going on.

Yet for all it's benefits, I have to admit that I just don't see it working well in the Midnight setting.  Midnight has such a rich history with tales of power beyond the wildest imaginings that I can't believe it all came from the most powerful beings being 6th level.  I mean come on, just try telling me with a strait face that Aradil, the Witch Queen, and the Night Kings, the most powerful figures around are only 6th level characters.  No matter how awesome a template they might have attached, I just don't believe it.

Sorry about that little rant there.  Anyway, that's been my experience with Epic 6 and there are my thoughts on it with Midnight.

[Gabboge]

Perhaps just widening the gaps between levels and making things above lvl 12 incredibly scarce might be a better fit.

[24/7 Bleak]

.....

[Sholano]

Perhaps just widening the gaps between levels and making things above lvl 12 incredibly scarce might be a better fit.

I've had some good experiences with epic 6, but I have to agree with LB that it seems a little limiting for Midnight. If you want to keep a cap on things, I'd say epic 10 or 12 might be a better way to roll - still less nutty numbers than the really high levels, but plenty of room for the PCs to have some real power.

Heh. Just realized I was chiming in on something very dated. Ah well. It got bumped to recent, and that's my excuse.