Midnight with Pathfinder rules + rules question

[Blackstorm]

Long time away, but I'm returned. In a couple of months I'll hopefully a midnight campaign. So, I checked the forum, seeking for a conversion for the Pathfinder system... I've found this topic, really useful, but I'd like to know if I need some other tools. I mean, that topic has the spell schools pdf, ok, the char sheet, ok... and then? What do I need to run a midnight campaign with pathfinder? I consider these points:
1) Races: I think the races of midnight are at the optimum for pathfinder, since the basic midnight races are a sort of +1 LA compared to 3.5, and I seek a similar power of pathfinder races, so I think that there's no problem in using the midnight races as is.

2) Classes: Hmmm. Just let's see. Do I have to make any adjustement in the pathfinder fighter, rogue, and barbarian? What about the options in midnight manual? My major concern is about the figher: is the Warrior's Way a too strong option for a pathfinder fighter? What do you think about that?
And then the Channeler: I suppose that it don't need adjustment, but I think that the I have to give them the arcane bond. What do you say?
And does the other classes need some adjustment?

3) There's something in the rules that I need to know?

[Doomed Hero]

I run Midnight with Pathfinder, and it all seems to work just fine. I give the Warriors Way out as an additional boost to the Pathfinder fighter, and i haven't noticed any balance issues.

here's the link to the pathfinder midnight game i'm running here. Take a look a the minor rules changes thread for some of the stuff i've done.

http://www.againsttheshadow.org/index.php?board=24.0

[Blackstorm]

Hmmm. I'd take a quick look to your modifications. It seems a bit too much complex. Thanks, anyway, there are some useful suggestion, that I'll certainly adopt, such as the races. I think the erenlander +2/+2 stat bonus is too much as they're human, but I want to check it better. Aside that, I want to use just the base manual, maybe some advanced option, and probabily something from the book on this site. I just want to take it plain, with few as possible modifications. I'm little uncertain on the race modifiers, but I think I'll give  the arcane bond. It seems good. But, about this... should the bonded item has a detectable aura?

[Doomed Hero]

Only if it's a magic item.

[Blackstorm]

Checked the races. I'm a little bit uncertain about wether or not change racial modifiers, but in case I listed them (I'll write the final modifiers):

Dorn: +2 Str (no int penalty)
Sarcosan: no change (+2 cha, int, -2 wis)
Erenlander: +2 to one stat of choice (no penalties)
Dwarf: +2 con, wis, -2 cha
Elves:
Wood: +2 dex, int, -2 con
Jungle: +2 dex, wis, -2 con
Snow:  +2 dex
Sea:  +2 dex, wis, -2 con (little uncertain about +2 wis, maybe is bettere +2 cha? Sea elves are merchant, after all)
Gnome: +4 cha, -2 str (no change)
Halfling: +2 dex, cha, -2 str
Orc: +4 str, -2 int (maybe -2 cha instead int?)
Dwarrow: +2 cha (no change)
Dworg: +2 str, con, -2 int (see orcs: maybe -2 cha?)
Elfling: +4 dex, -2 con (maybe -2 str?)


What do you think about that?

[Blackstorm]

Just an up... I have another question: should I take the item arcane bond? The spell recall ability is huge on the true channeler, as it means a spell energy reserve of 1 to 9 points. Too much, imho. Any suggestion?

[Blackstorm]

Ok. Near to the start, in 2-3 months I think to be able to run my midnight campaign. So I was checking the other sourcebooks, just to see some other feats-skill-heroic paths and similar. So I found the Wiser on darkenss falls site. The question is: in what sourcebook I can find the Wiser heroic path? Cannot find anywhere...

[arnon]

Sorcery and Shadow, page 45

[Blackstorm]

Some rules question:
1) If I use a Danisil elf with 2 sepi, and I get the Steelblooded path, how does it work with skilled warrior? I mean, does the sepi fighting skill of danisil that halve the twf penalty and skilled warrior, and I have twf, what is the penalty?

2) does the precise strike Defender class ability stack with Steelblooded strategic blow?

[Doomed Hero]

1) It reduces all the way to zero

2) Yes

[Blackstorm]

1) It reduces all the way to zero

Are you sure of that? It's because of the "normal penalty"? But one can argue that the "normal penalty" for a snow elf with sepis it's -1, and the half is 0.5, that in dnd is 0.

Another question:
3)

Improved Healing: The ironborn recovers from damage much more quickly than others. At 4th level, he regains hit points equal to one-half his character level every hour (this is in addition to any hit points regained from bedrest or a full night's sleep). At 14th level, he recovers ability score damage at a rate of 1 point per hour.

If the Ironborn does not rest, does he regain hp? That is, the hp regained, are regained even during the normal actitvity of the day? Or must the Ironborn rest to make che improved healing works?

[Doomed Hero]

1) Normal penalty with all the TWF feats is -2. Steel blooded reduces that to -1. Racial reduces that to -0.5. You can't have a fractional penalty and no decent GM is going to invalidate a racial bonus over a fraction of a point. The intention is to make the elf better than an equivalent other race. When technicalities and a glitch in the math override a character's standard abilities you have to go with the Rules as Intended rather than the Rules as Written.

The rules as written are arguable, but mathematically, .5 rounds down. (.6 rounds up) and nowhere does it say "always round up" or anything like that. Rules as intended make it clear that the elf is supposed to receive a benefit from the ability, so yes. Round down. It goes to zero.

3)It doesn't say the ability requires rest. It says that if they rest they get *more*.

[Blackstorm]

1) Normal penalty with all the TWF feats is -2. Steel blooded reduces that to -1. Racial reduces that to -0.5. You can't have a fractional penalty and no decent GM is going to invalidate a racial bonus over a fraction of a point. The intention is to make the elf better than an equivalent other race. When technicalities and a glitch in the math override a character's standard abilities you have to go with the Rules as Intended rather than the Rules as Written.

The rules as written are arguable, but mathematically, .5 rounds down. (.6 rounds up) and nowhere does it say "always round up" or anything like that. Rules as intended make it clear that the elf is supposed to receive a benefit from the ability, so yes. Round down. It goes to zero.

Yup. I get it. Just want be sure. Obviously i'm not going to cut a racial or class trait, I just want to get the raw right. I think that before you can make hr of any type, you must know the rule you're going to change, and know it well, so you can change the right rule. That's all

3)It doesn't say the ability requires rest. It says that if they rest they get *more*.

Hmmm. It seems to me a bit overpowered. I mean, at 4th lev, you gain 4 hp/2 hours, that means 48 hp/day+8 hour rest, it means 52 hp/day. At 4th lev. If I make a barbarian, with 1st hd maxed out, it's 12+3d12+4*con, 31-32+4*con average. So, let's say a 18 con, you have about 48 hp. If you have a lower con, you going to have 44 or less hp... And you heal 52 hp. Things gets worse as you going up. I'm a bit worried about that. One of my player wants to play something Wolverine style (initially he'd choose the beast path, then he'd go to ironblood). I'm afraid that he think only of physical power and want to be independent from cures. Dunno... it's seems to me he have too much raw power.

[Doomed Hero]

It does exactly what it's intended to do, which is make sure the ironborn is basically fresh and ready to go at the beginning of every fight. Give him a day to rest and it's like he was never hurt. Remember that Heroic Paths are basically the fantasy equivalent of Superpowers. It's a powerful ability, but it isn't overpowered. Overpoweredness is generally a decided by a character's ability to take on things of significantly higher CR than their level would indicate. This ability doesn't actually effect the character's combat abilities in any way. It just helps them reset faster so they are at full strength for the next one.

HP is an arbitrary representation of flesh wounds and bruises. It's not like his bones are knitting overnight. For serious wounds like internal injuries and broken bones GMs have status conditions and attribute damage, which aren't effected by this ability at all. Let him play the indistructible guy and when he overdoes it, toss in some more severe penalties.

[Blackstorm]

HP is an arbitrary representation of flesh wounds and bruises. It's not like his bones are knitting overnight. For serious wounds like internal injuries and broken bones GMs have status conditions and attribute damage, which aren't effected by this ability at all. Let him play the indistructible guy and when he overdoes it, toss in some more severe penalties.

Hmmm. It can be a way. Can you make a couple of example on the "overdoing"?

I add another question:
4) The Wiser Heroic Path: can it be safely allowed to pcs?

[Doomed Hero]

The 1st ed Wiser path was really OP for the powerlevel of the system at that time.

In my opinion the Wiser and the Jack of All Trades aught to be rolled into one. I did a rework of the Jack scaled for Pathfinder. Here is the link. Take a look and use it if you like it.

As for the 2nd ed Wiser, I think it's actually underpowered. You can offer it to your players if you want. SHouldn't mess up your game.

[Blackstorm]

The 1st ed Wiser path was really OP for the powerlevel of the system at that time.

In my opinion the Wiser and the Jack of All Trades aught to be rolled into one. I did a rework of the Jack scaled for Pathfinder. Here is the link. Take a look and use it if you like it.
As for the 2nd ed Wiser, I think it's actually underpowered. You can offer it to your players if you want. SHouldn't mess up your game.

Ty. For your rework, it's nice, but I think it goes too far. There's any platest to that rework?

[Doomed Hero]

Yep. I've run midnight since 1st ed. pretty consistently over a number of campaigns. My group and I noticed the power discrepancies between paths pretty early on and did a lot of patchwork house rules to try to fix things. When we eventually switched to pathfinder I decided to overhaul the paths to better match it's design philosophies. Not all my paths have been playtested, but the Jack has in two separate games. I know that it's abilities from 1 to 9 are level appropriate. Beyond that it's untested, but i have enough faith in myself as a designer to be able to say that there's nothing potentially game breaking in there.

[Gabboge]

As a player in that game I have to say that they were good changes. We as players were good at taking whatever rule change and trying to bend them to break the game. When you play in a game DH run you sometimes wait 4 months to lvl up so you know exactly what your going to do with that level and you squeeze it for every drop of power.

In terms of overpowered I never felt like our Jack was at all. If anything he just had a lot more options.

If you want to look at overpowered you should see what a player was able to do with the guardian path, some sneak attack and a well set up list of feats. It's scary.

[Blackstorm]

TY all. I'm evaluating some option for the heroic paths. I have another question:
5) Does the ironborn regain Con damage from ritual casting/spell energy burn at 1/hour ratio? I think no, but a friend of mine think that as the 14th lev ironborn regain ability damage at 1/hour ratio, this applies even to the Con damage to pay the spell cost. But in the description it says that this damage cannot be healed from spells or effects like lesser restoration... so I think that the ironborn ability cannot ovverride that.

[Doomed Hero]

5) That damage is considered Starvation damage and doesn't heal by any means other than rest and regular recovery.

[Blackstorm]

6)Does Knowledge(nobility) exist in midnight?
7) Metamagic feats: can I cast, e.g., a maximized 2nd lev spell with a 3rd lev channeler? I mean, must I have the level to cast a spell level higher than normal when I use a metamagic feats? Or I just need to pay the higher cost in spell energy, even if I can cast at max only the normal version of the spell?
8) Sorry if I repost, but I've nevere get any feedback on the modifiede races for pathfinder:
Dorn: +2 Str (no int penalty)
Sarcosan: no change (+2 cha, int, -2 wis)
Erenlander: +2 to one stat of choice (no penalties)
Dwarf: +2 con, wis, -2 cha
Elves:
Wood: +2 dex, int, -2 con
Jungle: +2 dex, wis, -2 con
Snow:  +2 dex
Sea:  +2 dex, wis, -2 con (little uncertain about +2 wis, maybe is bettere +2 cha? Sea elves are merchant, after all)
Gnome: +4 cha, -2 str (no change)
Halfling: +2 dex, cha, -2 str
Orc: +4 str, -2 int (maybe -2 cha instead int?)
Dwarrow: +2 cha (no change)
Dworg: +2 str, con, -2 int (see orcs: maybe -2 cha?)
Elfling: +4 dex, -2 con (maybe -2 str?)

Can these modification work?

9) I don't understand how does it work Power Reservoir feat: how can I store the surplus spell energy?

10) How do I use the Sundered Tongues? If one select the Sundered Tongues as language, how do I must act? As I understand there's more than one ST. So, do I need to figure out a bunch of languages and give laguages for every trapped outsider (like aquan for water elemental, ignan for fire's ones, some other thing for outsiders fey, and so on) and consider every one of those languages as separated? Or the Sundered Tongues are a common basis?

[Luiniel Blades]

6.)  Knowledge Nobility does exist in Midnight.  It is of course limited to the various regions where the information came from.
Example.  D.C. 5- Jahzir is the known king of Erenland.  D.C.10 Supposedly House Redgard was destroyed when Cale fell in the north, but rumor has it that a prince by the name of Roland lives on.  D.C. 15   The Gorund Clan is the largest clan of Dwarves in the Southern Kaladruns and rules from the still free city of Bodrun.  D.C. 20 It is rumored that Helrion Baden of the Shining Court is a bastard who usurped the Badens throne and that Thomas Badden of the Hidden Court is the true heir.
7.) For Meta-magic feats you only need to pay the extra spell energy to have the desired effect, except in the case of Heighten Spell which specifically state that you must be able to cast the spell at higher level.  To clarify in your example, the Maximized 2nd level spell cast by the 3rd level Channeller, would cost 5 S.E. rather than 2 and would have the maximum effect that the spell could have.  Example: Cure moderate wounds-Maximized would cure 19 h.p. rather than a potential 5-19 h.p.
8.) You're modifications could very well work, it's really up to you how you want to run your games.  If you want to compare, Doomed Hero has already made some changes for the Clarion Quietus game in the Major Rules Changes forum.
9.)  Power Reservoir has limited capability in game, when you have some way of gaining additional energy such as, visiting a power nexus and draining some energy into yourself, using the Improved flexible recovery feat, having the destruction of a black mirror unleash a massive wave of spell energy which could fill you up, or if you allow some creative bending of the rules having a Dwarven Lore Master use the Nexus recharge ability to give their spell energy to you.
10.)  The sundered tongues are all each of their own languages.  Aquan, Ignan, Terran, Auran, Infernal, Abyssal, Celestial, Mechanis, and whatever other languages I can't think of right now all need to be learned individually.  Take a look at the D&D Cosmology table, Take the Material/Shadow/Ethereal plane and cut it off from all the other planes and then find the languages belonging to each outside plane and those will be the sundered tongues.

[Blackstorm]

TY Luinel, this forum is a great resource for me. I think I'm a good master, but I want to run a really immersive game.

Some clarifications:
6a) Hmmm. Does the Knowledge Nobility exist as separate skill? Or it's an ability included in knowledge local or something?

8a) I've already checked the Doomed Hero pbf. I like it very much. I've take some ideas from it. I'm just afraid of unbalancing the game, with this modifiers.

9a) Hmmm. You mean that I can store temporary SE points every time I have the possibility to do so?

For the Sundered Tongues, as I thought. That's insane. A player of mine want to know everything, inculding every language of Arith. This mean a huge amount of work on ST. But I think I'll go midway: I'll grab up some tongues, the most common planar ones, and eventually add some other languages, 2-3. I can't go mad with thousands of planes

[Luiniel Blades]

6a.)  The way I would rule it Knowledge Nobility is it's own separate skill, which isn't to say you couldn't learn what you wanted to know from a Knowledge Local check, I would just increase the D.C. checks by 5 or whatever you think would be appropriate since you would be learning a more generalized version of the information at hand, than if you knew the specific knowledge you were looking for.  I use knowledge Local in place of things like Nature, Geography, History, Nobility and Religion checks.
8.) If you're worried about it then don't use them.  Pathfinder is supposed to be played a little overpowered, the effective C.L. of the PC's is +1, also Midnight itself is meant to lend itself to the PC's with handing them the Heroic Paths so they can be... well heroic.  It's true that if a character wants to be completely front loading their character they can focus on one ability and make it through the roof which helps out in the early levels, but the ability scores of characters don't matter quite as much once the game gets to about 5th or 6th level.  Also if they are completely overloaded on a stat, show it in game.  Make them stand out noticeably in a crowd, the order of the shadow would quickly learn to recognize the 6'10 Dornish man who fights like a Dire Bear, or the Elfling who moves like liquid, the Dwarf who just wouldn't fall down, the Erenlander who seemed to grasp any concept and who could read!!!, or that Gnome who has anyone who spoke with him swear his tongue was made of silver.  Of course Wisdom would be a little harder to notice but I'm sure you can think of something.
9.)  Yes, think of it as when you take the feat you become your own little nexus.  Most of the time however this will be a feat that is both dangerous and unreliable until later on.  I would recommend not even taking it unless you have at least a 16 or 17 Spell-casting ability modifier and even then I'd hesitate in favor of either the Blood Magic feat if you have a high constitution, or the Energy Focus feat.  It doesn't replenish when you rest, and would mostly just be a dead feat until you got access to one of  the ways I mentioned above, as an addition to my earlier statement the Whisper Adept with the Strength of the Woods ability.
10.) I don't think there are thousands of planes and I'm fairly sure there aren't many more languages than what I listed before.  As always feel free to make it as difficult as you want to have this person learn all the languages known, though the only people who could probably teach him would be either the Witch Queen who is busy fighting a war or Ancient Spirits who would either be mad or make him go on some dangerous quest for such knowledge.