Reworking Heroic Paths

[graymage]

no, you changed it to just duplicate the effects of a mechanical trap compared to the old rewrite. and it still has a second instance of Nature's Armory.

well here is a suggestion for the second instance, a Call to the Green effect, similar to what Spar gets in Breath of Fire 2, calling the plants in the area to help. in a more direct fashion. just imagine fighting in the desert and their are cactus, you could make them explode sending spines at your enemies.

[Doomed Hero]

Interesting thought.

The exploding cactus thing sounds an awful lot like one of the effects a mechanical trap could create though. That ability sounds like it's already covered as a potential option. If I were running the game and you (as a Naturefriend character) suggested that as a "trap" that could be created by that ability I'd definitely say yes.

I'll take a closer look at how I have things laid out and come up with some options. Give me a while.

[graymage]

yeah, I was looking at it to support a character concept I had for a upcoming Midnight game, the GM is allowing all the usual classes for midnight along with,scout,swashbuckler and the binder.

oh and for so ideas.Spar's battle ability is "Nature," which depending on the geography will produce different results, such as exploding cacti, trees literally attacking, healing, etc. This ability is useless in areas without nature.

[Doomed Hero]

Ok, fixed it.

I realized that Natures Armory is really the cornerstone of the path and aught to be usable from level one (since traps scale appropriately by level)

Sounds like Spar's ability is pretty much exactly like the Nature's Armory ability. The main difference is that, until 9th level, the Nature friend's traps seem like natural hazards or normally constructed snares rather than animated plants lashing out. After 9th level, animating plants with spell effects is definitely an option.

[graymage]

yeah, give a character time and advance warning and you could cook up a major ambush, heck a few elf npc's with naturefriend could bog down a army.

[Doomed Hero]

I tend to think of Heroic Paths as being extremely rare. In my games there's only ever one person at a time with any particular path. (I have my own reasons why people with paths tends to gravitate towards each other)

Other people run things differently though. I could definitely see a squad of Elven Naturefriends being big pain for the shadow forces.

[Luiniel Blades]

Another discussion I would like to see continue. So an easy fix for the Guardian path to make it better is to use the Pathfinder Paladins Detect Evil (Sp): "At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell. A paladin can, as a move action, concentrate on a single item or individual within 60 feet and determine if it is evil, learning the strength of its aura as if having studied it for 3 rounds. While focusing on one individual or object, the paladin does not detect evil in any other object or individual within range."

Not sure how I missed this for so long but there it is. Now a Guardian can move up to someone and Stare at them for a move action to determine whether Smite Evil would be worth it or not. The original ability is definitely more useful for sussing out traitors within the Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Gnomes or Human resistance groups.

[TravelingStoryteller]

Short Version: They are well crafted ideas but very powerful options I feel

Long Version: ... why would anyone want to play vanilla Pathfinder with what your Heroic Paths give a player? In many ways I would say these are better and more potent then the base classes, any one of these would up the power of each and every class and heck even being a channeler with a Heroic Path isn't weak when compared to full casters.

Why be a fighter when you can be a Steelblooded? Why be a channeler focused on divination or heck even a vanilla Diviner when you can be a Seer? Why be a fighter focused on archery or a Wildlander/Ranger when you can be a Hawkeye? That isn't even going into doubling up/comboing such as being a Steelblooded/Fighter (probably recommended anyway but still).

My point is these are powerful Heroic Paths, even when bring into consideration less magic items/weapons/armour in a campaign. These give players powers/ability no combination of classes/prestige classes/archetypes can give.
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Sure if the DM of a Midnight game allows them have at it, I would use any one of these Heroic Paths. The Seer works well for one character idea I have (though admittingly not quite as effectively or drastically), and the Heavensent (from another thread you made) would be perfect for a Fighter/Lightbringer build I have in mind.

[Doomed Hero]

They are balanced for Pathfinder, which presents more powerful options than 3.5 did.

They also seem powerful in comparison to many of the originals because many of the originals varied wildly in power scale. The first post in the thread addresses that.

I've been using these options for my players at home and online for a few years now. A few issues have been noted and worked out, but for the most part they operate within expected power ranges.

The thing is, you can't pick and choose. If someone in your group is using one of these paths, and someone else is using an original path, there is going to be a noticeable power difference. These paths are intended to completely replace the originals across the board.

[Luiniel Blades]

Just picking this discussion back up here since it seems to have meandered over to the Channeler rework thread.

So when Doomed marked down the Guardian path, the only problem he had at the time was with the Detect Evil ability.  As I've said before; alter it to the Pathfinder bit of move action one target, do the same for the Smite Evil and Lay on Hands abilities and end of discussion.

I'll be the first one to admit, it's not a big flashy change like any of the other Paths Doomed has altered but that is because it doesn't need to be. It gives all of the awesome abilities Doomed mentioned in the beginning of the thread and the path was better than most to begin with.

Example: A 6th Level Rogue, Gnome Guardian with a 20 Charisma can, Smite Evil 1/day with +5 to attack/AC. and +6 to damage/+12 vs. Undead, Evil Outsider, & Evil Dragons, which doesn't stop until the target is unconscious or dead, also ignores DR/ completely. Lay On Hands 8/day, 3d6 as a standard action/Swift action to heal himself, and can either Detect evil 60 cone over 3 rounds/ 1 person or item for 3rd round effect as a move action. In addition they get Inspire Valor (Free action) for 1/day for 6 rounds, +1 morale to attack/saves vs. fear, Righteous Valor for ignoring 3 points of DR/ and +1 to Constitution.

[Gabboge]

I generally find arguments of power-scale are largely irrelevant (Unless game breaking) when compared to how interesting they are. You can always upscale the monsters a bit but you can't do much for a player that has a terribly boring set of tools to work with.

Frankly I think Detect Evil is perhaps the most broken thing in the whole game.

In another game DH ran that base ability disassembled an entire sub-plot he had brewing in about 5-minets. Once we realized that we could pick out shadow minions in hiding or just assholes we quickly would use detect evil, pick them out and then eliminate them.

an extra +2 or whatever means almost nothing compared to that.

[Doomed Hero]

I don't mind it. It is powerful, but I like the concept.

[samwise7]

I'm going to be reworking some of the Heroic Paths for the next time I run this and this thread has given me a lot to reference and think about.  I like the tweaks.