Home forum Help Search Login Register

Site Sections

User Info

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
April 22, 2019, 05:06:03 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Recent Topics

Site Tips

Did you know any logged user can submit a new article or download to the site?
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6
Send this topic Print
Author Topic: Reworking Heroic Paths  (Read 76532 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Doomed Hero
Avatar of the Witch Queen
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +11/-4
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,907



« Reply #75 on: November 14, 2011, 07:45:00 PM »

Going back to the earlier example; the original Steelblooded, having reached level ten, has all three of those bonus feats into the Spring Attack tree - now they can Spring Attack, which hey, let's admit; pretty badass, right? The Adaptive Warrior, on the other hand, has access to Spring Attack if they should so choose - but they could instead be using the Greater Maneuver feats if they so chose. Say you've come across an enemy who's nailing you every round you Spring Attack, despite your Mobility. At that point, you decide instead it would be great to Greater Trip the guy, which works brilliantly. This is something the original fighter would never have been able to pull off - and yes, that most definitely makes him more powerful.

Dude, this is exactly what the steelblood should be able to do, and what my rework is intended to allow them to do.

Again, we're differing on terminology. There's a difference between power and adaptability.
Logged

Jack Chick, Abdul Alhazred, and Aleister Crowley walk into a bar...
Sholano
Bane of Legates
****

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 589



« Reply #76 on: November 15, 2011, 07:05:07 AM »

[EDIT: I think I can boil the below into one very brief point, on reflection. Adaptability/versatility/whatever is power, at least the way I measure it (more on that in what is now paragraph eight), although power isn't necessarily adaptability. That, to me, makes this version of the Steelblooded a direct upgrade in power. Now, fear the wall of text!]

Okay. I think we're miscommunicating on two levels.

First. All I'm attempting to get across, really, is that this version of the Steelblooded is, I think, a direct upgrade from the original, without making any other changes or sacrifices. Right? I can't see anything that makes for a hard choice, or any negative repercussions at all. I'm not trying to debate whether or not said upgrade is necessary or not, that's a separate argument that I'm not terribly interested in. I'm only trying to establish that we know it is just a straight increase in what I think equates to power - which brings me to the second point.

This one's gonna get longwinded, but bear with me.

Apparently, we differ on the idea of versatility as power. I believe that allowing a character greater options without making any sacrifices for said options constitutes being functionally more powerful. I agree that it does this by making them more versatile, but I think that making a character more versatile without giving up some kind of more direct advantage makes them more powerful.

To illustrate the point, gamers often talk bout the jack-of-all-trades characters versus the one trick ponies. Normally, in order to be good at many things, we sacrifice the ability to specialize, because all of our resources - feats, skill points, whatever it might be - end up spread around. This guy will jump into any situation and be a help. Maybe not much of a help as others, but he'll be in there every time.

The opposite side of the spectrum, obviously, is the hyperspecialization guy, who puts all of his points in doing one thing very, very well - let's say, haberdashery. He may not know how to tie his shoes, but by god, he could sell a hat to Izrador himself.

If we don't have to make those sacrifices, then what we end up with is a guy who can participate in any situation very, very effectively. A jack-of-all-tricks pony, if you will. And yeah, I'd say that guy is more powerful. Terminology = whatever you'd like, but I think that adding versatility without paying for it does mean extra power. Power, I think, comes down to whatever allows you to handle a given situation. Versatility increases your ability to handle any given situation, and therefore increases your power. In a subtler way then getting handed, say, a more powerful weapon, but an increase nonetheless.

Getting back on track, clearly, the Steelblooded stuff is only going to apply to combat, and it's not that incredibly extreme anyway, since it's only a few feats we're talking about here. And going back to the first point yet again, I'm not even saying it's necessarily a bad thing - I'm just saying it is an upgrade, and should be taken into account when talking about a Path that was originally included by you in the section of Paths that didn't necessarily need help. I'll leave it up to others to determine the necessity of said upgrade, but I'm pretty sure that's what it is.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 07:17:48 AM by Sholano » Logged

"You want me to what?! ... Gimme a minute."
Dorin's combat data | Dorin's character sheet
Doomed Hero
Avatar of the Witch Queen
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +11/-4
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,907



« Reply #77 on: November 15, 2011, 01:05:06 PM »

All the paths I've reworked have been upgrades. The reason for that is that Pathfinder works under the assumption that all characters have classes that are roughly equal in power (unlike the huge power disparity that 3.5 had. It's not perfect, but it's a lot better now than it was) and also have access to a certain level of spells, magic items and other non-class resources at any given level. That's what paths are for.

Instead of getting a +1 sword by second or third level, Midnight has small numerical bonuses built in. The steelblooded gets Offensive Tactics (which isn't actually as good as a flat +1 bonus, but is still pretty cool)

Frankly, all the paths both old and new, are less powerful than a normal character with access to level-appropriate gear. That's fine. It means there's room for them to pick up a magic item here and there in Midnight if they're willing to pay the price for carrying it around.

When I design a path I look at what the numbers and abilities are without any gear or non-class boosts, and then I look at what spells they should have access to at those levels, and I use that as the bar to measure what a path can or can't grant.

The Steelblooded rework does exactly what someone who's superpower is combat should be able to do without pushing the numbers higher than they aught to be. If the bonus feats were static, then really the Combat Guy would be better off picking a different path. (Quickened and Ironborn come to mind).

The way to beat this guy is to hit him where he's always weak (That's class dependant, but Will saves, most likely). Or to hit him from a few different martial challenges at once. The Steelblooded, to me, is the guy that beats you by figuring you out and countering your strengths.

The other thing that I wanted to do was allow a martial characters to have access to all the combat options. Let's be honest, having to pay a feat tax in order to effectively trip or bull rush is bullshit. By and large the combat maneuvers are highly circumstantial and not recommended because it's generally better just to deal as much damage as possible.

I always wanted to have a character option that would allow someone to use the full bredth of the combat engine if they wanted to. (Honestly, that's what the Monk should have been) Who better than the Steelblooded?

That's really the point of the adaptive feats. They let you use the combat engine however you want to. The Maneuver Master abilities give you an incentive to do so. (and even then, it's still usually going to be better just to hit them in the face)
Logged
Sholano
Bane of Legates
****

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 589



« Reply #78 on: November 15, 2011, 04:28:37 PM »

All the paths I've reworked have been upgrades.

Okay, so...we're agreed then? I was just pointing out what you just said. What are we arguing about?
Logged
Doomed Hero
Avatar of the Witch Queen
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +11/-4
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,907



« Reply #79 on: November 15, 2011, 05:10:22 PM »

Well, there's a difference between a necessary upgrade and an overpowered option. We're arguing about whether it's overpowered. I don't think it is, the impression I got was that you do. We argued semantics to make sure our terminology was lining up, and now I'm asking for some sort of example or evidence to support any claim that the Steelblooded Rework is overpowered. If it is I want to fix it.
Logged
Sholano
Bane of Legates
****

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 589



« Reply #80 on: December 13, 2011, 05:19:55 AM »

Okay, let this go for a while, coming back to it briefly (I hope). As I said before, I'm not trying to make an argument that the Steelblooded rework is overpowered. Don't know, don't care. What I was trying to point out is that it's an upgrade to the Steelblooded as it originally stood, and here's why I felt the need to bring that up: In the original set of posts in this thread, you singled out the Steelblooded as one of the Paths that didn't need an upgrade. It was one of the "Picks of the Litter", I think is how you put it. [Sidenote - I agreed with your original assessment of where all those Paths stood, relatively, which is probably why I'm paying attention to this next bit.]

As I understood it, the point of this set of reworks was to bring the Paths that weren't as attractive as options up to the level of those that were. If the paths that didn't need upgrades start getting them, this can begin to defeat the purpose I thought the reworks had in the first place.

One last time, I'm not up for debating the relative level of power that the Steelblooded may or may not have compared to other paths. Not what I'm bringing up, and frankly, I don't feel like putting in the effort necessary to figure that out (at this time, anyway). All I'm saying is that, in a list of Paths you thought didn't need an upgrade, you gave one of them some help. If that's because you've revised your earlier opinion, or just decided to do it anyway because you thought it was interesting, great. I just wanted to make sure that upgrade was a conscious decision, and not just an accidental byproduct.
Logged
Gabboge
Insurgent Commander
***

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-0
Posts: 492



« Reply #81 on: December 13, 2011, 09:57:48 AM »

I don't think it was that much of an improvement (Other then fun factor) but that being said. Even if it is improved, then it's not nearly as much of an improvement as a lot of the other paths he reworked.

There is also a difference between being a "good pick" and being overpowered. A good pick can be something that has very obvious benefits and is easily used. Quickened is a good pick while shadowed is plain OP.

I think the point of the rework was to make the path less mundane and give it more flavor and variety. After all in a normal game you could simply get different magic items but in midnight paths are for good so they better be damn fun.
Logged

\"No Mr.Bond..... I expect you to die!\"  -Travis.
Doomed Hero
Avatar of the Witch Queen
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +11/-4
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,907



« Reply #82 on: December 13, 2011, 12:12:48 PM »

Nail on the head.
Logged
Sholano
Bane of Legates
****

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 589



« Reply #83 on: December 13, 2011, 07:58:52 PM »

I don't think it was that much of an improvement (Other then fun factor) but that being said. Even if it is improved, then it's not nearly as much of an improvement as a lot of the other paths he reworked.

There is also a difference between being a "good pick" and being overpowered. A good pick can be something that has very obvious benefits and is easily used. Quickened is a good pick while shadowed is plain OP.

I think the point of the rework was to make the path less mundane and give it more flavor and variety. After all in a normal game you could simply get different magic items but in midnight paths are for good so they better be damn fun.

No disagreement here, exactly, except I think maybe we're still missing this - I'm not saying it's overpowered. I'm specifically not saying that, actually. I'm just saying, if one gets an overhaul/upgrade, and it was supposedly equal(ish) to the others, maybe the others should get a looking at too.

Oh, and a related point that came up earlier, and you kinda referenced there, Gabboge. Midnight being a setting without magic items isn't really the point of the Paths, I don't think - after all, if we were out to balance the PCs so they were equal to PCs with magic items...what's the point of the setting being dark? The GM sets the difficulty, basically, and the Paths (at least, as the book indicates) make the PCs about half a CR higher, with the improved racial abilities in Midnight tossing in the other half. From there, the GM can scale anything to match his players, or if he doesn't feel like Paths, so be it. The Paths are pretty much just an extra thing added to the setting which is pretty cool. You could easily throw them in any setting for a power boost, if that's all you're looking for.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 03:44:30 PM by Sholano » Logged
Doomed Hero
Avatar of the Witch Queen
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +11/-4
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,907



« Reply #84 on: December 13, 2011, 09:53:50 PM »

I'm just saying, if one gets an overhaul/upgrade, and it was supposedly equal(ish) to the others, maybe the others should get a looking at to.

Oh, I see. Well that's a different story.

The other paths are definitely getting an overhaul too. The thing I've taken away most from this project is that it's not enough for a path to be "good" (mechanically beneficial). They should also be "fun" (mechanically interesting)

The Ironborn is my favorite example of the change in the measuring stick that's happened I've undergone as a part of this. It's one of the best paths in the game, but frankly, it's boring. Really, really boring. I want it to allow options that no one else has by virtue of being "just that friggin' tough" but as it is, they aren't there. It's just more HP and some DR. That stuff should be there, but a few times along the progression it should grant "feats of endurance" in the same way the Juggernaut grants "feats of strength".
Logged
Doomed Hero
Avatar of the Witch Queen
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +11/-4
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,907



« Reply #85 on: December 13, 2011, 10:19:04 PM »

Midnight being a setting without magic items isn't really the point of the Paths, I don't think - after all, if we were out to balance the PCs so they were equal to PCs with magic items...what's the point of the setting being dark?

Actually, the paths are there *specifically* to balance the lack of magic items.

There's a phenominon known as the "christmas tree effect" that happens in the d20 system where PCs end up decked out with a ton of magic items. It's such a part of the system that the designers actually built it into the way the game scales. The CR system isn't balanced against the classes. It's balanced against the classes with a level-appropriate amount of gear.

Under normal circumstances it's actually impossible to run a low-magic game past about 5th or 6th level. Beyond that the monsters stats, saves and DCs start rising in accordance with the magical enhancements PC's are expected to have. PCs start getting outclassed by CR appropriate monsters really fast after that (the issues you and I had in Nightflier's game were because of this exact issue).

And while you're right that
The GM sets the difficulty, basically
the flaw in the equation becomes apparent when you realize that the system is based around an assumption of certain power levels. The GM does set the difficulty, but when the players are operating above or below the expected power level the GM ends up having to work against the system. It's definitely possible but it's also a huge pain in the butt, and less experienced GMs may even find that they don't really understand why their game has gotten less fun. They'll just realize it has and get frustrated. Games are fragile enough things without having to fight the mechanics to tell the story.

Paths are supposed to bring PCs up around the power levels that magic items would in a normal game. They're specific, so players will operate at expected power levels within their niche, but still be a bit weak in most other areas. Midnight PCs actually aren't more powerful than normal PCs (not by a long shot, especially at higher levels). What they are is more versatile. They tend to have more options available to them in terms of skills, extra feats, a few spell-like abilities, ect. But they will probably never get their hands on an Amulet of Natural Armor or a Cloak of Resistance (the most commonly sought after items in the Christmas Tree Effect model), let alone something like an Amulet of Fireballs or a Rod of Quickening.

 Hyperfocused Midnight PCs can be more powerful than average in one or two specific areas, but they are exceptions Midnight 2-W fighters and Midnight unarmed fighters are much more powerful than in a normal game, but that only means they don't suck, not that they're fantastic.

Paths are there to pad the power gap that comes from a lack of expected gear/resources. That's why I like to veer away from static bonuses (that's what the Christmas Tree effect is all about, and I hate it). A few are necessary, but along with them should come the extra options that magic items bring. That's where the fun is.



Logged
Sholano
Bane of Legates
****

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 589



« Reply #86 on: December 14, 2011, 03:41:38 PM »

I think I've just got to agree to disagree with you on that last one. I can't remember a time the CR of whatever actually mattered, except as a vague guess. In my experience, the DM always has to play with the baddies, regardless of their supposed Challenge Rating and no matter what kind of game they're running, if they want to have any kind of appropriate challenge for their PCs. I suppose I've just accepted that and do the 'how powerful are these guys really" equations as part of the consequence of running something. But no big deal, I suppose, whatever works for you.

Oh, and the point I was making about Midnight PCs being CR higher - as I recall, that's noted in the book for use in other games. Obviously, take away the setting, and their numbers are just better. That's all I meant by that.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 03:44:15 PM by Sholano » Logged
Gabboge
Insurgent Commander
***

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-0
Posts: 492



« Reply #87 on: December 14, 2011, 05:51:54 PM »

Well I think yours and my particular view on CR may be tainted by the fact that we have played in (And I ran) games with DH. Those game (even when we tried not to) normally had each player exploiting the system in some way. Thus our whole CR system got thrown out the window but with normal players this is less likely.

In fact I have found that throwing the kind of challenge I normally would throw at DH at any other "traditional" group would crush them. Our groups were just that broken and our players were just that inginuitive that we had to jerry rig most of our games to get challenge but we are the exception and not the rule.
Logged
Sholano
Bane of Legates
****

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 589



« Reply #88 on: December 14, 2011, 11:15:26 PM »

See, I'd say our group is much closer to the norm than you might think. I don't think I've ever run into a wholly 'traditional' group. There's always some crazy thinker bastard or a twink lurking around, however vanilla everyone else might be. And honestly...if there's a group that doesn't throw the GM a curve ball or three, that's a pretty boring game right there.
Logged
DaveTheMagicWeasel
Lightbearer
*

Spell Energy / Taint +1/-0
Posts: 99


« Reply #89 on: April 29, 2012, 12:06:15 PM »

Rather than derail Waldham's Shieldsplitter thread thought I'd reply here.

Yes, I'm familiar with your paths.  Got a Stormborn and a Steelblooded in the party I DM for.

Steelblooded

So, first to weigh in on the Steelblooded debate - we've played through levels 4 & 5 since the Steelblood character joined the party, so he's had 2 floating feat slots to make use of.  Character is a Danisil Barbarian 1 / Fighter 2 / Wildlander 2.  Base choices are Power Attack, Dodge/Mobility (as one feat slot as a houserule, coz they're really not worth 2 feats!), Spring Attack, TWF ... and one more I can't remember.  Character also has a covenant item pair of mthril sepi which can change shape into different weapons/merge into a two-handed weapon.  I've also been allowing him to pull feats from just about any source imaginable (Netbook of Feats, any 3.0/3.5 book, etc - subject to me giving it the nod when he tells me what it does, and I've not said no to anything yet).

So, between the special weapon, the floating feats, my own loose restrictions on character creation/allowed books, and the fact that his base feat slots were chosen to deliberately give him the opening feat in common chains (Dodge & Power Attack) I'd say that this is as good a stress test for the path as could be conceived.

And my conclusion so far is...


*drumroll*


It's totally balanced.

Mainly because of the fact he can only change one feat per round - it means that pulling off that hypothetical perfect combo every single round is really difficult.  It's very useful for sure - being able to respec as a competent archer (PBS + one of Rapid/Precise Shot) has come in handy, being able to switch between Power Attack+Cleave+etc with a two-hander or TWFing has been useful, but at no point has he ever been able to totally dominate because combat moves so fast that getting the right combo at the right time is a very difficult balancing act.  E.g. couple of sessions ago they got attacked by a big plant creature (loosely based on a Tendriculous) - he retrained to Close Quarters Fighting to resist the grapples, but only after he'd already been grappled.

What it has done has really highlighted just how situational a lot of fighter feats are, and how limiting them to maybe a dozen slots to fill (in advance) screws over melee characters as compared to spellcasters - the discussion after our last session wasn't "OMG this is so overpowered!", rather it was "this is how all fighters should work!".

Will have to see how it goes as he levels up and gets more slots, but the one feat change per round limit will still apply as a limiting factor till 20th level so the paradigm shouldn't change too much.  Perhaps a 20th level Steelblood with Perfect Warrior would get silly (if nothing else recalculating the character sheet every round could get annoying), but compared to 9th level spells ... I'm not worried about it.

Painless

Flavour-wise I really like it, and fits the fluff given for the path perfectly.  Would be a good fit for a Dire Blade, or a Durgis Battlerager, or a Dworg of some sort.

Unfortunately, I can't see me ever choosing it as a player.  Sailing that close to death would rather put me off tbh.  And sometimes dropping unconscious when you hit negative hp can be a good thing - carry on fighting and the monster is likely to finish you off.

So, a mixed review - I like it, but 9 times out of 10 I still pick Ironborn over it.  I might try and find a way to use it at some point coz I do like the flavour - maybe a Channeler for Bloody Power, some cure spells to lessen the risks, don't need to be in melee when in negatives or use full-round actions and lose more hp...

... but then I start comparing it to Dragonblood.
Logged
Doomed Hero
Avatar of the Witch Queen
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +11/-4
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,907



« Reply #90 on: April 30, 2012, 11:13:12 PM »

Thanks for the playtest report. That's pretty much exactly what I was hoping for with the Steelblooded.

Any suggestions on how to make the Painless more appealing?
Logged
Gabboge
Insurgent Commander
***

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-0
Posts: 492



« Reply #91 on: May 01, 2012, 10:42:21 AM »

I imagine a painless player being the type who can just choose to take a hit on the arm or a stab to the stomic in order to get an opening on his opponent.

Perhaps they can have an ability to take an attack in order to be able to imedatly attack back or have the next attack that foe is flat footed.
Logged
DaveTheMagicWeasel
Lightbearer
*

Spell Energy / Taint +1/-0
Posts: 99


« Reply #92 on: May 01, 2012, 11:23:44 AM »

@Gabboge - it's in there already, Uncaring Stance.

Hmmmm.....

Firstly I'd change Increased Death Threshold to just be +level to threshold.  As it is, the path could be quite good for a Dwarf/Dworg who maxes out their Con, changing it would make it more widely useful for other races.

Secondly, I'd change Shirt of Scars to a delayed damage pool & furious counterstrike similar to the Crusader from ToB - fits flavour-wise and gives it something more widely useful than nonlethal DR (and then give it something to make it resistant/immune to fatigue for forced marching, etc purposes).  Maybe make Uncaring Mind trigger off of the delayed damage pool rather than be flat bonuses.

Bloody Focus - needs more options.  As it is, 5 slots to fill over the course of the path, but only 7 to pick from.  Considering any non-caster has no use for Bloody Power it's really 5 from 6 (and the casters don't generally much care about Accuracy or Strength).

Maybe tier it, and then put in some more powerful options (only trigger when you're nearly dead so balance-wise making them awesome isn't going to be too problematic).  E.g. Improved Bloody Mind (immune to mind-affecting when in -ves), Improved Bloody Toughness (immune to crits when in -ves), Improved Bloody Quickness (imp. evasion when in -ves), etc

Also, I'm not sure about the ones listed all being +X.  They're going to change frequently and be awkward to track in combat.  I think Bloody Will, Toughness & Quickness should all be changed to "roll twice, use the highest".  Still very useful, easier to track as no changing modifiers round by round, keeps the numbers in the same range as regular saves better, and has the benefit of avoiding auto-fails on 1s (coz at a certain point on the bell curve more bonuses to your saves become less valuable).  Accuracy could be the same, dunno what I'd do about Strength.

Maybe Bloody Power could be "gain double Spell Energy for Con spent on casting" ... or "cast as if you have a Spell Talisman for one school of magic" (so it becomes something you can choose multiple times).

Just a Flesh Wound - I'd just let them take full-round actions without taking 1 pt of damage.  They're already in -ves, flirting with death enough as it is.  Plus as it is it penalizes melee painless more than caster painless (who are usually quite happy with just a standard action).

Gift of Pain - conversely, this needs a nerf.  Heal or Cure spells aren't exactly something your average monster has, as it is this one ability could neuter a huge proportion of the monster manual with no possible response on their part.  Make it a Fort save vs Disabled, with a duration, that way it's good (denies full-attacks), but not too good.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 01:56:35 PM by DaveTheMagicWeasel » Logged
Gabboge
Insurgent Commander
***

Spell Energy / Taint +3/-0
Posts: 492



« Reply #93 on: May 01, 2012, 01:31:02 PM »

whoops, it's been a while sence I read it.
Logged
Luiniel Blades
Avatar of the Witch Queen
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +4/-0
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,570


"Inch towards daylight"


« Reply #94 on: May 01, 2012, 01:57:12 PM »

To me the Painless character is someone who's body spends most of the time in sort of a coma like state, I imagine them to be soft spoken, have a reduced heart rate and a fairly easy going/uncaring personality most of the time, and then when they get close enough to death the body awakens and they explode with motion and energy that normally isn't there.  It's like a Barbarians Rage but less of an external offensive adrenaline rush and more of the body internally moving to protect itself.

Dave,

I agree with you on the point of maybe making the death threshold equal to character level.  It makes having the path easier better to use for everyone in the lower levels which are in my opinion the most dangerous and not just high constitution characters at 7th and above.  Although if that change were to happen, what would fill up those empty slots?  Hmm, maybe Uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge.

The delayed damage pool is certainly an interesting idea, but the fact that the mechanics for it are in another system that most people probably don't have and the fact that it's another thing they would have to keep track of seems unnecessary.  The flat bonuses are just easier of and make more sense to me.

The bloody focuses seem fine.  Like I said, it's like the body is awakening and moving on it's own to rid itself of harm.  Also the bonuses aren't all that hard to keep track of, the more damage you have the higher your bonuses.  I grant you that the strength bloody focus for Spellcasters is very limited in circumstances, but there are many attack roll spells that the accuracy could be useful for.  As for Bloody Power, the Double spell energy for constitution spent is a feat the Channeler could pick up, although the Talisman idea is interesting with the Schools your Channeler can cast spells from.

I'm not sure about 'Just a Flesh Wound.'  The idea that you can keep pushing yourself at the cost of 1 hit point seems fair enough as it is.

Gift of pain is an 18th level character ability that most people will probably never see.  They also have to land a critical hit.  I say let them have the cookie.  Sanulael and his mass of Fell over there won't care too much however.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2012, 04:21:38 PM by Luiniel Blades » Logged

Currently reading: Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series; The Hero of Ages.
Draco
Heepa-Heepa


Spell Energy / Taint +0/-0
Posts: 18


« Reply #95 on: May 05, 2012, 05:42:59 AM »

Hello and greetings from Germany.

Intersting ideas you guys (and girls?) are juggling here.

But I'm a bit confused. While scanning through the posts I got the impression that you rework the HP with Pathfinder in mind.

If so, the "Death Threshold" already is set to -CON and not -10.

While reading your discussion, I wonder if the game actually needs both the Ironblood and the Painless, or if those are so similar that they could just be made into one quite nice HP?

I understand that the Ironblood is about "taking the punch" and the Painless about "not caring about the punch".

But since there are no real pain rules or conditions that apply when reached a certain HP threshold, other than dying, there isn't that much to work with for the Painless.

You can of course let the Painless be (almost) fully operational when under 0 HP, but wouldn't that simply be the same as giving him a number of additional HP in the first place?

I hope you know what I am trying to say here.
Logged

Take a look into my (yet unfinished) new Core Class: The Keeper Core Class
Doomed Hero
Avatar of the Witch Queen
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +11/-4
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,907



« Reply #96 on: May 05, 2012, 12:04:44 PM »

Draco, you are correct. Looks like there's an edit coming soon. Thanks.

As for combining the Ironborn and the Painless, I've wondered the same thing myself. When I started this project I decided that I was going to try not to do things like that though. I'm trying as best I can to maintain the integrity of the source material.

My goal us to take similar, weaker or redundant paths and make them mechanically unique, interesting and viable. The painless still isn't there. (neither is the Blessed, IMO).

Do you have any ideas?
Logged
Draco
Heepa-Heepa


Spell Energy / Taint +0/-0
Posts: 18


« Reply #97 on: May 05, 2012, 02:14:29 PM »

Hmm... after reading both entries in the MCS, I think that the Ironblood should be about Damage Resistence, etc.

While the Painless should be more about Iron Will, resisting most Will-Saves, etc.

In short:
Ironblood: Physical
Painless: Mental

I am still not that convinced that the game really needs both, but I like the flair of them, so I can see the reason for keeping them.
Logged
Doomed Hero
Avatar of the Witch Queen
*****

Spell Energy / Taint +11/-4
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,907



« Reply #98 on: May 05, 2012, 03:34:26 PM »

That's an angle I hadn't thought about. I'll look over things tonight and do a revision.
Logged
Draco
Heepa-Heepa


Spell Energy / Taint +0/-0
Posts: 18


« Reply #99 on: May 05, 2012, 03:38:44 PM »

You might take a look at all the Conditions existing in PF and figure out which ones would fit the Painless to be immune or at least resistent against.

Have fun!

BTW: What time zone you live in?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6
Send this topic Print
Against the Shadow  |  Forum  |  Midnight & RPGs  |  Open Discussion (Moderators: Bleak Knight, Glacialis)  |  Topic: Reworking Heroic Paths
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines
AtS Dark Mercury design by Nifelhein, based on the Mercury theme by Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.098 seconds with 28 queries.
TinyPortal © 2005-2011