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Author Topic: Reworking Heroic Paths  (Read 74528 times)
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Doomed Hero
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« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2012, 06:17:19 PM »

GMT -8, why?
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Draco
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« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2012, 06:27:09 PM »

Well it's just my general curiosity.
(I'm in GMT +1)

Oh, the wonders of the internet... Wink
« Last Edit: May 26, 2012, 07:59:26 AM by Draco » Logged

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Doomed Hero
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« Reply #102 on: May 05, 2012, 07:30:56 PM »

Indeed. Smiley
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Luiniel Blades
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« Reply #103 on: May 05, 2012, 08:27:41 PM »

Hmm, that's a very interesting way to look at things.  That being the case I suggest either bonuses or immunization against being stunned, sickened, staggered, and nauseated since they have pain as one of their primary causes.
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Doomed Hero
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« Reply #104 on: May 06, 2012, 04:28:45 AM »

I've revamped the Painless. I think this time I got it right.

Take a look, tell me what you think.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 04:32:52 AM by Doomed Hero » Logged
Luiniel Blades
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« Reply #105 on: May 06, 2012, 02:16:01 PM »

I can say without a doubt that the Painless has definitely jumped up into my list of top picks for Heroic Paths now.  The addition of a lot more options to the Bloody focus as well as Mettle and the Bloody Mess abilities were a nice touch.  Mettle is such a rare ability and the fact that your critical  Multiplier goes up is something I've only seen specialized high level Wildlanders do so that is bound to attract more attention to the path.
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Doomed Hero
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« Reply #106 on: May 06, 2012, 05:51:10 PM »

I still feel like one or two higher tier bloody focus abilities might be good. Any ideas?
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« Reply #107 on: May 06, 2012, 06:59:28 PM »

Bloody Evasion-Improved comes to mind.  Other than that not much except the Uncanny Dodge abilities.  Although those seem a little too out of place for the Painless.
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Draco
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« Reply #108 on: May 06, 2012, 09:10:55 PM »

Okay. This might take a while so be prepared:

General Comment:
As is now, the main schtick of this HP is the Bloody Focus. So the Painless should always try to get into the negs fast and remain their. An interesting and quite dangerous thing.
I still think that "Uncaring Mind" should be the main focus.
For someone who "doesn't feel anything", a +4 bonus against fear, strechted over 17 levels, just doesn't do justice.


Diehard: While I can see the idea behind it, I can't lose the feeling that Ferocity might be the better choice, at least in the lower levels. (But I'm getting a major headache while reading "Diehard", "Disabled" and "Ferocity").

Shirt of Scars: This might be one way of interpreting "feeling no pain" in D&D. No great ability but still nice to have.

Uncaring: As I said, this ability should get more attention. The bonus should be raising faster and higher.
In addition, I would make the Painless immune to shaken, frightened, panicked with increasing level.
Or maybe: "Whenever subject to a fear effect, you may reduce the condition by one degree (i.e. at levels 1, 3, and 6). Meaning:
Reduction of 1: Panicked becomes Frightened, Frightened becomes Shaken, Immune to Shaken.
Reduction of 2: Panicked becomes Shaken, Immune to Frightened and Shaken.
Reduction of 3: Immune to all three.

Mettle: I like this idea. It's like Evasion but also for Fort-Saves. But what about Will-Saves? Aren't there any "Will, half" effects in D&D?

Bloody Focus: It IS an interesting idea, but maybe there is an easier way to deal with it.
First, you can drop the part about "being disabled" since all abilities only work or give bonuses while in negative hit points.
Second, I still think that keeping track of these often-changing bonuses might be a bit too annoying, so you might consider changing these abilities into something like "if in neg hit points, receive bonus to X equal to character level / Y".

Just a Flesh Wound: This one is a little confusing in combination with Diehard.
While using diehard, you take 1 point of damage if taking any streneous action (such as any standard action). Does this ability mean I take only 1 point of damage and can both take a move and a standard action without any further damage?
And just a minor thing: With having Diehard, the Painless will never be considered dying, since he automatically stabilizes (and is then considered stable, not dying), so you can delete that part.

Uncaring Stance: Now THIS is a great ability and TOTALLY fitting the Painless concept (at least for me).

Call of Blood: As I said, always keeping track of the neg hit points and what bonus I get is too much paperwork.

Gift of Pain: Don't you mean Staggered? You could be lucky and crit-hit an opponent on the first attack. Being disabled for probably the remainder of the combat is a BIG disadvantage (only move action without -1 hit point & half movement).
Or maybe something entirely different, like Sickened.
You might wanna take a look into the new "Critical Feats" in the PF book.

Unfazeable: Wow. That one somehow slipped my attention.
You could probably combine several into "any mind-affecting abilities". I guess you also meant benefitial effects, right?
While I see the reason, I would delete "morale" from the list since there are many benefitial abilities that give a morale bonus, but aren't mind-affecting abilities (oddly enough).
With sleep I guess you meant "magical sleep effects, like the elven immunity?
With stun, do you mean the stunned condition or non-lethal damage, or both?
Fatigued/Exhausted, maybe Exhausted a bit too much, but who cares?

Death Proof: Now this one is quite strange. While it is a powerful ability it actually HURTS the main ability of the Painless. You want your character to be as deep in the negs as possible. So healing hit points every round is contra-productive to this.
How about: You gain DR X/-, with X being the number of negative hit points you are at.
You might even give this ability at an earlier level.


Wow. That's done. Maybe I can find some sleep now, though I somehow doubt it. (It 5 AM here now, couldn't sleep since 2 or 3).
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Luiniel Blades
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« Reply #109 on: May 07, 2012, 03:29:02 AM »

The point of Bloody Focus in my mind is that when the character does get into the negatives he becomes less likely to die than other characters.

Uncaring mind is a nice static bonus but shouldn't be more powerful than that.  Giving things like immunity to fear by 6th level is way more powerful in my mind than a lot of abilities you gain from Prestige classes.

Diehard is pretty much the same thing as Ferocity as far as I can tell.

Mettle actually works for both Fortitude and Will saves.

Just a flesh wound, not sure about this one.  I assume it means you can take a full round action at the cost of 1 hit point rather than 2 but that's up to Doomed.

Gift of Pain, Doomed could have meant staggered, but sickened seems a little weak for an 18th level ability.

Unfazable, this ability probably works for everything as written.  Although I admit the immunity to exhaustion and fatigue  step on the Iron-Borns toes a little.

Death Proof-  I think this idea works as written.  Even though it works against the idea of the Bloody focus, it keeps you alive to fight.  The idea of the D.R. is great until a Legate you're probably dealing with decides to hit you with Energy damage of some sort and kills him.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2012, 01:23:06 PM by Luiniel Blades » Logged
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« Reply #110 on: May 07, 2012, 08:07:30 AM »

Why? The Paladin is immune to all fear effects starting at 3rd level.
Make it "fear reduction by 1 step every 3 levels (3rd, 6th, 9th) then.

Diehard is a bit better, since you automatically stabilize too.

Mettle: Yeah. I guess I wasn't THAT awake after all (4 AM and all that...).  Laugh


Thanks for pointing out my mistake but one suggestion (no disrespect):

If you didn't design it, don't assume its intent and let the designer comment it.

All of you, have a nice week!



Some thoughts:

"Problem": This HP - as is now - works best with low-Hit point classes. Though this doesn't need to be a problem, you might keep that in mind.

Uncaring (rework): Your Will and Fort saves are always considered "Good", while your Reflex save is always considered "Slow/bad", regardless of your choice of classes.


Maybe a GREAT ability for this HP would be the ability to SACRIFICE hit points for bonuses or to trigger abilities.
Something like "Uncaring Stance" but more diverse in its uses.
With sacrifice I mean taking damage, not permanently reducing max. hit points.
(But would also be an idea...)
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 01:21:34 PM by Draco » Logged
Doomed Hero
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« Reply #111 on: May 23, 2012, 07:09:59 PM »

Sorry it's taken so long to get back to this.

Draco, I can see where you're going with wanting the path to be about Willpower rather than Toughness. My only issue with that is that I feel like it would be too much of a deviation from the original path. While it's pretty clear that the original painless just wasn't as good as the Ironborn, I see no reason that the ideas presented in the path couldn't work. The basic principals of the path are of a character that isn't hard to hurt, he's just hard to kill, and has a knack for turning pain into fuel. I feel like making the "Painless" unto the "Unfeeling" pushes a roleplaying element on a player that isn't necessary.

Regarding Diehard: I like it better than Ferocity, not just for the auto-stabilize, but because it's a basic feat and not something that players will need to look up in the Bestiary. The difference is small enough to be unimportant.

I do like your suggestion of simply making Blood Focus abilities kick in at "negative Hit Points" instead of Disabled, and of changing the wording of Just A Flesh Wound. I also streamlined the Bloody Focus numbers to be less of an exercise in bookkeeping. I think I've fixed them.

I've also added Bloody Offering and Bloody Block (off your final suggestion) to give players an option to activate their Bloody Focus abilities without being in negative HP. I think with that addition it should feel less like a "race to the bottom". I didn't want it to be a constant option or overshadow what they get when they hit negatives, but I agree that having the option to power up every once in a while is a good one.

You're also right about Gift of Pain. I was thinking Staggered but wrote Disabled.

Unfazeable has been reworked to be more inclusive of mental attacks. I decided I wanted the immunities to come later because of Mettle. In the same way that Evasion is essentially a reduction of Rexflex effects, Mettle is a reduction of Will effects. It's just another way of doing what you're talking about. It's not saying that they are less scared when get scared, it's saying that they're less likely to be scared. By the time they get to Improved Mettle, they're less likely to be scared, and often less scared when it does get to them. It's a more elegant solution than a specific reduction to status effect levels. Unfazable is essentially Improved Improved Mettle. (the next step up from "partial effects on a failed save" is "immune").

I don't see having a "physical" path that appeals to low-Hit Dice classes as being a bad thing. It just lets them shine a little more often. By contrast, adding this path to a frontliner is going to make them a lot less susceptible to Will save vulnerability, so it will appeal to them too.

I don't think changing the Good and Bad save progression of classes is something a Path should be able to do. It means Rogues just won't want to take it, and lets the path sort of "override" a fundamental class mechanic.

As for Deathproof, the power isn't actually the Regeneration effect. It's that Regeneration makes you immune to death. Regeneration plus Diehard equals no effective death threshold. They can act normally at -200 HP. Pretty much as long as they still have their head and a limb to hit people with, they can. I did decide to change it to Regen 1. I figured that they shouldn't be healing while they were using Just A Flesh Wound.


Thanks for pointing out my mistake but one suggestion (no disrespect):

If you didn't design it, don't assume its intent and let the designer comment it.


Actually LB's observations are mostly correct. He was one of the players in the game that I tested a lot of my ideas in. His character was something of a cross between a Null and a Painless, so his input's been valuable in trying to figure out what to do with this odd Path.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2012, 07:20:47 PM by Doomed Hero » Logged
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« Reply #112 on: May 24, 2012, 02:40:54 AM »

Greeting from across the big waters!

I must say I really like the HP now.
Getting rid of the bookkeeping was a good discission.

One or two additions:

Bloody Focus: You still have "disabled" as a possible trigger. Is this still intended?

Bloody Block: Don't like the name that much. Maybe "Bloody Response" or "Bloody Retaliation". Other than that it's good.

Death Proof: But this means the character will heal 1 hp per round (as long as in neg hp, of course),
since Regeneration works like "Fast Healing" plus the "non-dying" part.
So he might get out of the negs during combat and lose his abilities. This IS intended, right?
In addition, what does "decapitation" actually mean in game terms?
A coup-de-grace? Massive Damage? This NEEDS clarification, since there are no rules about cutting someone's head off.

As to my later thoughts.
I said "problem" (in quotation marks, because it's not REALLY a problem), just something to think about.
And changing saves for a HP is not D&D mechanic and shouldn't be used.
So forget 'em.

As of LB's comments.
I do know that LB is constantly helping you, and as I said, I really meant no disrespect. But in the end, YOU are the designer and only you can give a definite answer. Guessing about your intentions simply isn't getting us anywhere and it's best to simply wait and let the designer (you) clarify the situation.
That's all I wanted to say.

Other than that: Great work! Smiley


P.S: By the way, I am working on a new core class for quite some time and if you guys feel so inclined, I really could use some comments, suggestions or other help in finishing it.
I somehow hit a wall there and can't choose the right way to proceed.
Take a look at the KEEPER
« Last Edit: May 24, 2012, 02:44:30 AM by Draco » Logged
Doomed Hero
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« Reply #113 on: May 24, 2012, 11:46:55 PM »

Bloody Focus: Yes. There are other effects that render someone Disabled (being at 0 HP for instance). I'm ok with a rare Disabled condition that doesn't happen when in Negative HP triggering Bloody Focus.

Blood Block: I didn't like it either, but it's all I could come up with. It's been changed.

Death Proof: Vorpal Swords decapitate Smiley massive damage saves are a joke at 20th level. Everything's doing more than 50 damage a hit, and the Save isn't really that high. Coup de Grace might be good. I think maybe if we word it as "if the Painless fails a save brought on by Coup de Grace damage they die".

What do you think?
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Draco
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« Reply #114 on: May 25, 2012, 01:16:24 AM »

I would still suggest to delete "disabled" as a possible trigger condition.
It simply saves trouble and fit's better to the concept.
But that's your discission, and not really a big one.

About Death Proof.
I wonder if there isn't a better way in dealing with this over than giving "Regeneration"...
Do you actually WANT the Painless to heal 1 hp per round?

I have my doubts whether this is too powerful or not (20th give or take).
Do all your redesigned HP become effectively immortal in the end?

Maybe something simpler like: "Your death threshold is equal to your maximum hit points."
or something similar...


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« Reply #115 on: May 25, 2012, 11:03:25 AM »

Yes, I do want the painless to heal 1 Hp a round. Remember that by 20th level the average blow is going to take about 5 minutes to regenerate from. Think of it in terms of an action movie. In five minutes the hero basically gets a second wind. They're still bloody but they aren't noticeably slowed or tired.

Not all paths become effectively immortal. Just the ones it makes sense with. There are no epic level games in Midnight. 20th level is as big as a character gets. Capstone abilities should be something that puts you in the realm of demigods.

Doubling the painless' hp still lesves them vulnerable. I can build a 20th level defender with no gear at all capable of putting out 1000 damage a round with his
bare hands. I don't think the Painless should be able to be killed that way. I feel like the only way to kill the demigod of toughness should be to chain them up and put them in a guillotine.
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« Reply #116 on: July 23, 2012, 08:09:57 PM »

I've just spent the last two hours editing and correcting mistakes and rewording a few things.

The Charismatic and the Naturefriend both got significant overhauls to a couple of their core abilities to reign them in and make them less complex.

I still don't like the Faithful but nothing's coming to me in terms of how to fix it. I may end up going with a simple spell point pool mechanic. Sigh.
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Luiniel Blades
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« Reply #117 on: July 24, 2012, 12:13:17 AM »

Pass Without a Trace is marked in both the 1st level and 6th level slots.

« Last Edit: July 24, 2012, 12:34:39 AM by Luiniel Blades » Logged
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« Reply #118 on: July 24, 2012, 12:24:33 AM »

fixed, thanks
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Draco
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« Reply #119 on: July 27, 2012, 05:36:56 AM »

Hey DOOM!
Did you intend to put all your work in some sort of downloadable document?

It would certainly come in very handy.

Also, but putting a link to this document in your signature, you could simply edit this document instead of re-editing your posts.

Either way, keep up your great work!
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« Reply #120 on: July 27, 2012, 11:53:52 AM »

I do, but I want to finish them all before I submit them to Nif for inclusion in the downloads section. (once they're uploaded they're a lot harder to do these small fixes on. This thread is the Beta test, more or less)

I just got my home computer up and running again after about three months of having to do without it, so these projects of mine should be a lot easier to keep up on now.
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« Reply #121 on: July 27, 2012, 12:32:30 PM »

Maybe we should open up a battle grounds thread to test out some of the paths. Build out various charecters and see how they play. I would be down for that.
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« Reply #122 on: July 27, 2012, 06:26:36 PM »

Go for it.

I'm too busy to mediate the fights, but I'd be fine with observing, commenting on if abilities are performing over or under par, and making necessary alterations to the paths as things progress.

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« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2012, 01:10:48 PM »

You have a second instance of natures armory, does it do anything?  For the naturefriend
« Last Edit: December 30, 2012, 01:13:17 PM by graymage » Logged
Doomed Hero
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« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2012, 06:04:38 PM »

Every time you get Natures Armory you are able to chose one of the listed abilities.

Is that unclear? I can reword it if it doesn't make sense.

Honestly, the Naturefriend is one of the paths I'm not satisfied with yet. I need to re-do some of the abilities to make them less complicated.
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