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Author Topic: [Help]Craft(Alchemy) and non-spellcaster PCs  (Read 5048 times)
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Blackstorm
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« on: March 29, 2009, 04:42:54 PM »

I tried to search but i couldn't find anything... So, the question is: if a character takes Herbalism feat to create oils and stuffs, does he need Magecraft too? The SRD says that if a pc want to use Craft(alchemy) it must be a spellcaster. Is that true even in Midnight?
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Nifelhein
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2009, 07:19:03 PM »

I would not require the feat to create herbal concoctions in midnight, though some of the standard items created with it might still call for it. The player paid a feat to create them, it does not require Magecraft so that is reason enough.

In any case welcome to AtS. Wink
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arnon
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« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2009, 11:45:06 PM »

I agree with Nif.

And welcome to AtS..
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Bihlbo
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« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2009, 11:58:12 PM »

I tried to search but i couldn't find anything... So, the question is: if a character takes Herbalism feat to create oils and stuffs, does he need Magecraft too? The SRD says that if a pc want to use Craft(alchemy) it must be a spellcaster. Is that true even in Midnight?

Going by the rules as written, you can use the Herbalism feat to make anything found here, and there is no need for you to be a spellcaster. However, in order to make the items found in the D&D core rules in this section (that is, acid, alchemist’s fire, smokestick, tindertwig, antitoxin, sunrod, tanglefoot bag, or thunderstone), the rules do make it clear that you must be a spellcaster, but you don't need the Herbalist feat.

A (non-legate) character can do virtually nothing with the Craft (alchemy) skill without Herbalist or Magecraft.

Nif is suggesting that he would house rule the Herbalist feat and herbalism rules in order to not require the feat. Use house rules as you like, if you want to do that, but please recognize that it would be a house rule that changes the rules in the Midnight 2nd Ed. book.

My preference is to not change things on this issue. I think it's fine that the Craft (alchemy) skill can be useful in different ways, depending on whether you have Magecraft or Herbalist. But, if I were running a game and there was opposition to this, I wouldn't have a problem with ruling that having the Herbalist feat also qualifies you to make the core D&D Craft (alchemy) items which normally require you to be a spellcaster.
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Blackstorm
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2009, 07:28:55 AM »

Ok... Perfect. I'm going to run a play by forum, my players are icreating the characters, and one of them asked me if he need the magecraft feat to qualify for use of craft alchemy. I was in doubt on that. Reading your posts, I'm on the way to concede the use of craft(alchemy) for creating oil without need of Magecraft. Thank you all. Another question: you know that a poison can be created by making craft(alchemy) check. Now, it's reasonable that a man who knows how to use herbalism to help people, knows even how to harm them. But I'm in doubt. It's reasonable to requires a check of something like (create poison)? And what about the antitoxin? It's be reasonable to allow the antitoxin creation to non spellcasters?
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Nifelhein
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« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2009, 08:13:17 AM »

Actually I suggested the same thing you did Bihlbo: that it should not require another feat to make use of the herbalism feat.

As for poisons, they should be possible to create using herbalism, like the famous danisil poison that works solely against orcs, for example.
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Bihlbo
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« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2009, 08:49:49 AM »

Actually I suggested the same thing you did Bihlbo: that it should not require another feat to make use of the herbalism feat.

That's not what I suggested, that is the way the rules are written. But, I could have misunderstood you anyway:

I would not require the feat to create herbal concoctions in midnight, though some of the standard items created with it might still call for it.

I did misunderstand. I thought, since the question also had to do with the Herbalist feat, that you were suggesting you would not require the Herbalist feat to create herbal concoctions. I can see now you referred to the Magecraft feat. Blame the vagueness of "it."
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 08:53:08 AM by Bihlbo » Logged
Bihlbo
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« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2009, 09:09:19 AM »

Another question: you know that a poison can be created by making craft(alchemy) check. Now, it's reasonable that a man who knows how to use herbalism to help people, knows even how to harm them. But I'm in doubt. It's reasonable to requires a check of something like (create poison)? And what about the antitoxin? It's be reasonable to allow the antitoxin creation to non spellcasters?

I don't read anything in the SRD that says Craft (alchemy) can be used to make poisons, could you please site a reference? I've always used Craft (poisonmaking) to create poisons, but I don't have books with me so I can't back that up right now. Yes, I think it's reasonable to say that someone can use Craft (poisonmaking) to make an antitoxin, but Craft (alchemy) works too (if you are a spellcaster).

To be honest, I don't really get why the core D&D rules say that you must be a spellcaster to make antitoxin and the like. In my game, this is not required (house rule).
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Blackstorm
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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2009, 09:46:41 AM »

I don't read anything in the SRD that says Craft (alchemy) can be used to make poisons, could you please site a reference?
Lol.... I've checked.... sorry, my fault... for an unknown reason I was sure that posion was listed in the alchemical products... Never mind, it's my fault Smiley

Quote
I've always used Craft (poisonmaking) to create poisons, but I don't have books with me so I can't back that up right now. Yes, I think it's reasonable to say that someone can use Craft (poisonmaking) to make an antitoxin, but Craft (alchemy) works too (if you are a spellcaster).
Ok, it seems right.

Quote
To be honest, I don't really get why the core D&D rules say that you must be a spellcaster to make antitoxin and the like. In my game, this is not required (house rule).
I think that i'm go halfway: some alchemic items are simply unknow, even by the pcs, to be created. Something like sunrod, smoke staff, and the like seems to me too specialized to be a common knowledge among the heroes of midnight.
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Bihlbo
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2009, 09:53:23 AM »

some alchemic items are simply unknow, even by the pcs, to be created. Something like sunrod, smoke staff, and the like seems to me too specialized to be a common knowledge among the heroes of midnight.

I like that a lot, and might steal it.  Smiley
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arnon
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2009, 10:14:36 AM »

Something like sunrod, smoke staff, and the like seems to me too specialized to be a common knowledge among the heroes of midnight.

That's how I do it, these things are lost... though the heroes might find those things in forgotten places, maybe even instructions in some ancient tomes.

Who knows Wink
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Blackstorm
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2009, 10:56:36 AM »

I like that a lot, and might steal it.  Smiley
Free to steal all you like Smiley


Another question, where i can find a midinight poison table? The base table in 2nd edition manual list only 3 or 4 poison... and the poisons on the dmg are almost all absurdely overpriced (even for midnight... the oil of taggit is worth 90 gp, that is 90 vp... a 0/uncounsciousness poison that worth about double of the orcbane, even more if you see the corpse acid... It's ridicolous...)


@arnon: yup, who knows.... the starting adventure of this pbf is really close to your idea Smiley
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