Pathfinder Rules for Midnight

[IORNBORN]

My game has restarted with only 2 players so there is definately some beefing upneeded to make the party survivable.

I have been using one of the Pathfinder d20 rule sets for Rogue, and fighter.  It offers a stronger class especially for fighter and seems to really help in Midnight where magic items are so rare.

The rules are avalible for free download at Paizo.com though I think the current Beta playtest may be a little different from what I am using.

Check em out and tell me what you think!

IORNBORN

[Doomed Hero]

I've been hearing about this for a long time now, but this is the first time that I've actually taken a look at it.

I love it! I've spent the last hour perusing the changes, and i'm very impressed. A lot of the changes that they've made miror the house rules that I've been using for awhile, and their changes to the core classes are really well done.

This is really good stuff.

[IORNBORN]

Yes it is!  And you can see how you would be happy playing a base class all the way to 20th level!

Thanks for taking a look at it.  Please let me know how the playtest goes for you if you try one.

THE FIGHTER CLASS HAS BEEN REBORN!

IORNBORN

[Sholano]

Huh. Sounds interesting, I'll have to check it out when I get out of work.

[IORNBORN]

Also check out some of the new feats like Backswing.  They are a little more powerful, some may be a little broken, but many are rock solid and add chipotle honey mustard bbq style flavor to the game.

IORNBORN

[Leviathan]

Iornborn,

The Pathfinder rules look pretty cool, but I'm waiting for the final rules version to come out this summer.  It's also good to see another fan who likes the fighter class.

I seem to remember a line out of Frank Herbert's Dune, which went something like, "Long Live The Fighters!"

L

[arnon]

Slightly off-topic, but if you like to look at variant rules for the regular d20, you might also want to take a look at Monte Cook's Book of Experimental Might I & II. Great changes to the magic system (in the first) and great additions to the fighting classes with Fighting Domains (in book 2).

[Renvil]

Could you summarize the fighter domains?  What do they do?  I'm interested in purchasing the books and using them with the Pathfinder rules.   Just looking for a little more insight before I bite!

[arnon]

See my response in a new thread, here.

[Sunderman]

I played Pathfinder rules at Dragon Con last year. Excellent. I have heard some grumbling about simply souping up classes and that the changes are just for power gamers, but I think I agree with the post two replies up... for the Midnight Setting this could be a great asset. There is a lot of good downloadable stuff for Pathfinder as well - most of it still in Beta.

[Bihlbo]

One of the changes they made in Pathfinder results in sorcerers and wizards being even more powerful than they already were (and as two of the four most powerful classes, that's quite a feat). I don't think that was a good idea.

But in Midnight, casters kinda suck and need beefing up! I made a couple of changes to the arcane school specializations as presented in Pathfinder and have a good house rule for channelers. Pathfinder's arcane school gives an extra spell every other level, and I didn't think that was fitting for Midnight. Also, because Universal school spells are out in Midnight the Universal school specialization as presented in Pathfinder is instead a list of swappable powers - you can substitute those for the powers granted by your selected school at any level. Other than that, this is what I'm using for channelers:

School Specialization: At 1st level you select one school of magic with which you are most closely identified. This must be identical to the first Spellcasting feat you gained or will gain. Each school grants a number of school powers dependent upon your level.

Innate Channeling (Sp): Starting at 4th level, you gain the ability to cast one spell as a spell-like ability once per day. Select a spell that you already know and are able to cast. You can now cast this spell as an innate spell, without expending spell energy to do so. At 4th level this must be a level 1 spell. At 8th level you gain an additional spell, this time up to level 2. At 12th level you gain up to a level 3 spell as a spell-like ability. At 16th level you gain up to a level 4 spell, and at 20th level you gain up to a level 5 spell. At each level this ability is gained, you can instead choose a spell of a lower level, which you can then prepare twice per day, or a spell of the granted level after being altered by a metamagic feat.


After having played a channeler, I think they are pretty gimped. I like the way they cast, learn, and use spells better than core D&D spellcasters, but because their spells/day are horrible by comparison, they are hunted for casting spells, and in the places where they would be most effective as heroes their spellcasting is hampered by black mirrors, the class is fairly ineffective in the game compared to any of the others. The innate channeling (ooo! 5 free spells at level 20!) ability means they have a little more freedom to use their big trick and they function a little better as magic specialists. The additional powers granted by the Pathfinder school specializations look like they would work really well in Midnight. Most of them grant some ability to do something magical at-will, which is both awesome and dangerous, because magic is usually obvious, so no one is going to use those abilities willy-nilly in occupied lands. Well, no one except bad guys, who have the upper hand anyway.

I also like the Pathfinder domains for legates, and am using those as well. Here are my versions of the two Midnight-specific domains using Pathfinder's method of domain wrangling. I have some listed with a (Ds) noting that these are domain spells and are cast as actual spells, not spell-like abilities. This seems to function better in Midnight, where spell-like abilities are all innate magic and legates don't truck with that.

Inquisition Domain
Sects: the Sisterhood of Tender Mercies.

Legate
Level    Ability
1st    Pain Touch (Su): As a melee touch attack, you wrack a living creature with excruciating pain,
   dealing 1d6 points of nonlethal damage + 1 point for every two caster levels you possess, and causing
   it to become sickened. This ability has no effect on creatures of a higher level than you or with more
   HD. Once a creature has been affected by pain touch, it is immune to its effects for 1 day. Creatures
   immune to critical hits or pain are unaffected by this ability.
2nd    Shocking Grasp (Ds): You can cast shocking grasp 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th    Zone of Truth (Ds): You can cast zone of truth 1/day.
8th    Divine Right (Su): You can issue a number of commands per day equal to your caster level.
   This functions as greater command, except that it only affects one creature within 30 ft. A
   creature cannot be affected by your divine right ability more than once per day.
12th    Symbol of Pain (Ds): You can cast symbol of pain 1/day.
16th    Legend Lore (Ds): You can cast legend lore 1/day.
20th    Energy Drain (Ds): You can cast energy drain 1/day.

Seeker Domain
Sects: Witch Takers.

Legate
Level    Ability
1st    Magic Hound (Su): You have a latent sense for magically-endowed blood that is similar
   to that of an astirax’s abilities. You may attempt to track individuals with the Magecraft feat as
   though following a mundane set of tracks. For this purpose only you are considered to have
   the Track feat and scent ability. You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to the Survival check for
   every two spell energy points your quarry had when he was in the area. Survival becomes a class
   skill for you.
2nd    Longstrider (Ds): You can cast longstrider 1/day per 2 caster levels you possess.
4th    Locate Object (Ds): You can cast locate object 1/day.
8th    Flight (Su): You can fly at your base speed for a number of rounds per day equal to your
   caster level. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. Your maneuverability while flying in this
   manner is perfect.
12th    Locate Creature (Ds): You can cast locate creature 3/day.
16th    Waves of Exhaustion (Ds): You can cast waves of exhaustion 1/day.
20th    Antimagic Field (Ds): You can cast antimagic field 1/day.

[Doomed Hero]

But in Midnight, casters kinda suck and need beefing up!

Man oh man do I disagree. Proper application of spells are how my group deals with damn near everything. Half of the party are casters at this point, and even though only one of them focuses solely on magic, the ability for a 7th level rogue type to toss out a 4th level spell really tips the scales in their favor.

As for the primary caster, he holds his own just fine. Greater Evocation is nothing to laugh at.

[Bihlbo]

Man oh man do I disagree. Proper application of spells are how my group deals with damn near everything. Half of the party are casters at this point, and even though only one of them focuses solely on magic, the ability for a 7th level rogue type to toss out a 4th level spell really tips the scales in their favor.

As for the primary caster, he holds his own just fine. Greater Evocation is nothing to laugh at.

Well, you're right that spells and magic don't suck. They can change everything. But compared with a sorcerer (the weakest of the 4 dedicated core casters) a channeler is a joke. A 6th-level sorcerer has the equivalent of 31 spell energy, while a 6th-level channeler with 18 CAS has 10. The payoff? 1 higher BAB, an extra feat, and a tradition gift. Given how game-altering spells are, I think I'd opt for 3 times the spellcasting if it were an option.

That's not to say that spellcasting in Midnight is borked, I'm just pointing out that in core D&D a channeler would be laughed at, and with a little game tweaking it's not that hard to beef up channelers enough they better hold their own with the other classes.

My personal experience while playing a channeler is that being hunted and virtually unable to use most of your abilities in any setting besides the fringes of civilization is a huge balancing factor. I played many games in a row where casting a spell was a very bad move, and so I was relegated to being a walking wikipedia: "Hey Kyuad, check your lorebook for us and try not to let your familiar get us killed." The channeler isn't as flexible as it needs to be.

Oh, and some of greater evocation is something to laugh at. One barbarian with a two-hander usually puts any direct damage spell to shame. It's the area spells that make it worth the risk to cast a spell. I mean, if a flame strike is an average of 31 damage for me, why would I do that when the guy with the axe can do more damage in a full attack? I'm not going to risk letting every astirax within 9-1/2 miles know where I am for that. Now, for 31 damage to everything in a cone? YESMOREPLEASE

[Sholano]

Greater Evocation is nothing to laugh at.

Unless you don't mind getting blown up while you're having a chuckle.

Oh, and metamagic can change the whole game for a caster. Maximize = boom. Suddenly all that 'average damage' junk goes clean out the window when the full potential of dice is brought to bear - and most Midnight metamagics don't even require you to cast the higher level spells. Yes, this sort of tactic does mean the Channeler goes boom in the first couple of rounds, then goes and sits in the corner, but he just killed most things on the battlefield, so that's acceptable. Oh, and let's not forget Scentless Spell (out of ToS). The only metamagic I've run across that requires you to actually cast the higher level spells, but it does mean that a channeler can throw around some weight no matter where they are, even in a city.

A normal spellcaster can go all day, yeah, but channelers will blow you the hell up just fine.

[Prince_of_Destruction]

Doomed Hero, you may want to read the pathfinder stance on cleave. Seems a bit too broken.

[Altus]

Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a full-round action, make a single melee attack
against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage
normally and can make an additional attack (at the same
bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also
within reach. Both of these attacks are made at your highest
attack bonus. You can only make one additional attack
per round with this feat.



Great Cleave (Combat)
You can strike a number of adjacent foes with a single
mighty swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack
bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, make a single melee attack
against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage
normally and can make an additional attack (at the same
bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and
within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks
against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they
are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe
more than once in a round with this feat.


more powerful, yes. Broken... honestly i don't mind seeing the melee bruisers getting this perk. my precision based character can drop most opponents in a single hit, and the axe of a barbarian doesn't need to kill its target to go through it. Casters in non-midnight games blow their load all over the damn place, and combat oriented casters far outshine the biggest fighters when it comes to damage output. I say let them have their uber cleave. it seems thematically sound, and mechanically i think its no less harmful then fireball. Hell, the fighter/barbarian has to be in melee to get the benefit of this feat. the likelyhood of this being abused or exploited seems unlikely. They explicitly have to be adjacent, and only one attack per foe. Our bruizer usually drops the entire swath of enemies surrounding him anyway, so i guess its a bit more powerful at lower levels, or against stronger opponents, but if the big hitter is in melee with two or more powerful opponents, forcing him to only damage one per round is pretty much a death sentence. i think mundane classes have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to power criticism for a while. This doesn't seem broken to me.  keep in mind. This is a FULL ROUND ACTION. this can only be done once per turn. Period. before, you could get four attacks, and cleave on all of them. if anything, this is a nerf, not broken. perhaps you missed that bit.

[Sunderman]

You make some good points about the weaknesses of the fighter base class... and both cleaves make it a bit more potent. Realistic? This is a fantasy game. How many movies (i.e. Conan, Star Wars, and even more recently Legend of the Seeker) have we seen where the fighter type does exactly this; swings his/her mighty blade and a swath of enemies are blown back from it. I think it will stay in my game as it makes the fighter more interesting.

As an aside - I used to play Stormbringer by Chaosium. They had a skill that a fighting type (they really didn't have classes per se) could learn called "Riposte" which allowed the PC to make his/her attack, defend against the enemies swing with a parry, and if successful get another attack on the same attacker... OH and the PC got a regular attack the next round. Eventually you could work youself up to multiple attacks with multiple Riposte and be a serious killing machine. I always felt that THAT was not quite a fair - or like was posted earlier, broken. But again it held with the flavor of the Elric saga.

[Renvil]

This is probably a silly idea, but I was just brainstorming about the channeler class and how they seem underpowered.  What if you gave them a small damage "mystical" ranged attack they could do every other turn to give some damage output that didn't risk magical detection?  Like a "nature's attack" for spiritual channelers were a small gust of wind punches their enemy.  Make the damage 2d4 to start and then up it to 3d4 at 5th, and 4d4 and 10th.  On the "every" round they are summoning the energy to do it, and then they can unleash on the "other round".  Have them make an attack roll to hit with their Int, Wis, or Cha as a to hit bonus?  At least it would give them something to do in combat after their spells are expended.

[Sunderman]

Interesting. Something like the warlock's attack in 4e. I like the limitations... but the undetectuble part... that one is questionable in my opinion. In another forum there is a core class that has "spiritual" affinity with Aryth and can use some spell like powers. These are undetectable... but they are internal. What you list has an effect on another being. I think I would have trouble justifying it. You should expound on your idea though and maybe submit it as a variant for the channeler. Maybe it's not casting a spell per se, but a force of conscious thought. pseudo psionics?

[Gabboge]

I'm sorry did someone just call a channeler underpowered? WOw.... Your spell level is determined by charecture level not by lists atached to your class. If you really look at it Channeler is ment to be mixed with other classes and it dose so wonderfully. I dont think they need anymore power.

[Bihlbo]

Well woopdydo, I multiclassed and didn't get hit with a spell level access penalty like a sorcerer does, so I can still cast level 6 spells even with 3 levels of channeler. Big friggin deal, I have 5 spell energy and can't actually cast ONE level 6 spell without Con damage. That's kind of a non-bonus. I haven't personally see anyone attempt learning higher-level spells if they aren't a dedicated channeler, because it's mostly pointless gaining access to something that, if attempted, is going to prevent you from casting spells the rest of the day. Most of the time you get more utility out of casting a few level 1 or 2 spells than you do out of that big level 6 anyway, depending on what you're trying to do.

[Renvil]

Sunderman,
For pseudo psionic I would think that would fit the Charismatic channeler better.  Like a force of personality attack.  I guess I was leaning towards the undetectable part concerning astiraxes, not the person receiving the attack.  So the orc or legate getting struck by a concentrated force of wind would know who is doing it to them, the astirax 10 miles away would not detect it because it is not spell energy being used to power it.  It could represent the spiritual channeler's attunement with Aryth.  That way if the party is trying to be stealthy, the channeler does not have to be completely ineffectual.  So if a spiritual channeler has a force of wind as their attack power, a charismatic channeler has the psuedo psionic personality attack, what about the hermetic channeler?  Maybe they possess creatures' "true names" and by naming them bring down a curse on the creature for damage?  That seems like a stretch.  Does someone else have an idea for a hermetic attack power?
 

[Gabboge]

Its called dragonblooded or why dont you have a better ability score. 5 energy points? you only have a +2 on your casting ability? Why on earth would you go compleetly channeler? To get 1 extra spell point a level? Think about it this way too, if you have blood magic then every time you invest a new ability score into con its just as good as giving you 2 spell points. Hell yes you can burn con, if you dident have shitty con to begin with then you should be allright.

[Bihlbo]

Its called dragonblooded or why dont you have a better ability score. 5 energy points?

I was referring to a character in a previous game who was focused on something other than spellcasting but who took a couple channeler levels. What I described is reality, not theory.

You're missing the point. You said you can access higher spell levels even with multiclassing, and it was to this that I replied. But with multiclassing sometimes it makes no sense to bother learning or casting higher-level spells. And yeah, there's always min/maxing you can do to get around limitations, but that's not at all the point.

However, I'm not in full disagreement with you. It is nice that you can take a level or two of something else, and while there are certainly costs in the area of spellcasting, at least you don't have to be stuck with access to spells of one lower level for the rest of the character's progression, like legates would be.

[Prince_of_Destruction]

Cleave (Combat)
You can strike two adjacent foes with a single swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: As a full-round action, make a single melee attack
against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage
normally and can make an additional attack (at the same
bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also
within reach. Both of these attacks are made at your highest
attack bonus. You can only make one additional attack
per round with this feat.



Great Cleave (Combat)
You can strike a number of adjacent foes with a single
mighty swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack
bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, make a single melee attack
against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage
normally and can make an additional attack (at the same
bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the previous foe and
within reach. If you hit, you can continue to make attacks
against foes adjacent to the previous foe, so long as they
are within your reach. You cannot attack an individual foe
more than once in a round with this feat.


more powerful, yes. Broken... honestly i don't mind seeing the melee bruisers getting this perk. my precision based character can drop most opponents in a single hit, and the axe of a barbarian doesn't need to kill its target to go through it. Casters in non-midnight games blow their load all over the damn place, and combat oriented casters far outshine the biggest fighters when it comes to damage output. I say let them have their uber cleave. it seems thematically sound, and mechanically i think its no less harmful then fireball. Hell, the fighter/barbarian has to be in melee to get the benefit of this feat. the likelyhood of this being abused or exploited seems unlikely. They explicitly have to be adjacent, and only one attack per foe. Our bruizer usually drops the entire swath of enemies surrounding him anyway, so i guess its a bit more powerful at lower levels, or against stronger opponents, but if the big hitter is in melee with two or more powerful opponents, forcing him to only damage one per round is pretty much a death sentence. i think mundane classes have gotten the short end of the stick when it comes to power criticism for a while. This doesn't seem broken to me.  keep in mind. This is a FULL ROUND ACTION. this can only be done once per turn. Period. before, you could get four attacks, and cleave on all of them. if anything, this is a nerf, not broken. perhaps you missed that bit.

The problem I have with what they did with cleave and great cleave, is that they have essentially been made into a lesser version of whirlwind attack. I don't like the nerfing to a full round action, as I like the charge to cleave ability, or charging sunder cleave for breaking shield walls. Still being able to hit so many ajacent enemies is just kinda overpowering fighters.  I realise this is heroic fantasy horror. However, With the bruisers in our game, the two bruisers will consistantly deal out at least 8 points of damage per enemy per round. As long as they can get into the thick of it. It feels off to me, really off. I don't know why, given my character is streamlined to do atrocities with cleave and sunder.