The Paladins Reborn

[Doomed Hero]

Oh. Quick thought. Does the Shepherd's Crook retain the same stats as earlier in the thread? 'cause, while I know you hate the trip rules, other folks play by them, and you'll probably want to throw in a line about being able to make trip attempts with them. The "+4 to trip" bit implies that, but...

done

[Doomed Hero]

I've thought about the OP issue, and while I originally intended this to be something that someone could qualify for early on, and approach from multiple classes, at it's heart it's a fighter PrC. Most people are going to multi-class to meet the skill requirements, but even still it's not quite the same now as it was when I wrote them originally.

I bumped up the BaB requirement by 1, which means if a character knows it's available and pushes right the should qualify for it at 5th and take their first Paladin level at 6th. That seems about right to me. 6th (for melee types) and 7th (for casters) is when the game scales up dramatically in power level, so that seems right for this class.

Any fighter-ish class is going to have to figure out a way to meet the skill requirements without losing BaB progression, but the rewards will be worth it if they do.

For most classes this is going to be a level 8+ PrC.

[Doomed Hero]

I'd totally do my P.A.s this way.
1)Smite Evil
2)Divine Grace
4)Hammer of Righteousness
6)Divine Protection
8)Holy Sword
10)Graceful Presence
Huh. Not a single Tier 3 in there.
Regardless, looks good to me. Maybe a touch OP, especially for something that can be qualified for so early, but since you have to get to and be accepted by the Herald first, that's probably okay.
God, if this is the watered-down-powered-by-a-Celestial version of a Midnight Paladin, when the Lost Gods were still around, they must've been freaking terrifying. Oy, think of the clerics!

I don't see OP in that progression. By the time you finish it, you'll be 16th level minimum. Probably 17th.

17th level=9th level spells.

With that progression you're going to be able to hit something really hard, stun them, and set up the party rogue for the kill. Which is still not as good as Power Word Kill.


If you want possible OP look at the combination of entering the class for being a Defender (with speed training and weapon trap), picking up Armored, Shield Master, Fervor, Intercept, Redoubt and then Divine Protection at the end. None of the big stuff, but if you've got Improved Overrun and Improved Bull Rush, you've got a guy who can stop almost any approaching enemy in their tracks, knock them back for trying to swing at them and repeat again 3 or 4 more times in one round.

Toss in the Tactician Path, Throw Anything, Improved Trip and an Covenant shield and you've got a pretty good Midnight-equivalent of Captain America.

[Sholano]

No, no, I didn't mean my particular progression was OP. Although, seriously, Divine Grace and Divine Protection are ridiculous. I just put up the way I'd do things to amuse me, then pointed out what I thought about the class.
Anyway. I've been trying to figure it out, and it looks like any given character isn't going to be able to hit this class til pretty high level. Those skill reqs hurt bad, particularly Knowledge: History, and to a lesser degree, Diplomacy. In order to qualify for those cross-class (which they both are for every full BAB class in Midnight), you'll have to be 9th level first, then take your first PrC level at 10th.
Come to think of it, I don't think Knowledge: History is a class skill for anyone except hermetic channelers. That's a tricky one.
So unless I messed up my math, the only way to hit this class before 10th level is to ride out five levels of a fighter-type, then take 1 level of Hermetic Channeler, pump up your Knowledge: History that level. Then take a level of Rogue or something and pump up your Diplomacy. That will qualify you by 8th, and you're a very strange mishmash. Hell, at that point, you'd be better off just riding out Channeler for seven levels, now I think about it. That'll get you the BAB without the multiclassing.
So yeah - Channelers get there first. Weird, considering that "at its' heart, it's a fighter PrC".
...my point became a little obscured in rambling for a minute there, but I think I've gotten there - do you still intend for there to be a Legendary class afterwards? 'cause I don't think there's room for those levels once you qualify for this thing.

[Doomed Hero]

There are a few other ways to meet the skill prereqs, including a few feats that make skills "always" cross class (Studied, Cosmopolitan) In addition, there is the Adaptor Warrior's Way.

Even if your GM doesn't allow feats from books that aren't Core/Midnight specific, I still think you can do it with 4 levels of fighter and 2 levels of Channeler. It means the class is available at 7th level under Core rules, and 6th if you include one "outside" feat. I'm fine with that.

Divine Grace is taken right out of the standard Paladin abilities. And yes, it's disgusting.

Divine Protection scales appropriately. It's about the same as a Defender's progression.

The Epic Paladin i'm working on is a level 14+ class. It fits in just fine so far. Here's a taste...

[Doomed Hero]

There will be about 10 abilities to choose from, I've listed the ones that are done.



Blessed Shepherd

Prerequisites:

Diplomacy- 10 ranks

Heal- 8 ranks

Must posses 5 Paladin abilities.

Must slain at least 100 agents of the Shadow within view of witnesses.

Must have converted at least one follower of Izrador away from his worship.


Class Abilities:

1) Blessed Shepherd Ability
2) Blessed Shepherd Ability
3) Blessed Shepherd Ability
4) Blessed Shepherd Ability
5) Blessed Shepherd Ability

The Rank of any of the abilities listed below is the same as the Blessed Shepherd Class level it was taken at. (an ability taken at level 1 has a Rank of 1)

Shepherd of Dawn
This ability allows the Shepherd to erupt into dazzling, blinding golden light. This light is shed in a radius equal to 100' x the Shepherd's Charisma modifier. Good creatures within the radius gain a morale bonus to Attacks and Saves equal to the Rank of this ability. Evil creatures take a Morale penalty to Attacks and Saves equal to the Rank of this ability.
All weapons wielded within the light's radius are treated as Blessed (good) for the purposes of bypassing damage reduction, and other vulnerabilities.
All creatures within a radius equal to 5'x the Paladin's Charisma modifier must make a Fort save (same DC) or be Dazzled. Looking at the Paladin while this effect is active is like looking into the sun. All ranged attacks against the Paladin are at a -5 penalty. This light acts exactly as sunlight for the purposes of any associated weaknesses (such as an Orc's light sensitivity and a Vampire's vulnerability).
This ability has a duration (in rounds) equal to it's Rank x the Shepherd's Charisma modifier. and is a Move Equivalent action to activate.

Shepherd of Mercy
This ability allows the Shepherd to cast Heal as a spell like ability. This ability is usable once per day, per Rank.

Shepherd of Redemption
Shepherd's with this ability gain a bonus to attack and damage against Undead equal to the Rank of this ability.
In addition, after successfully attacking an undead creature, the Shepherd may treat thier weapon as if it had the Disruption enchantment. This Disruption ability may be used a number of times per day equal to the shepherd's Charisma modifier x the rank of this ability.
The Shepherd also gains the ability to use a Quickened Turn Undead as a Cleric of their Character Level a number of times per day equal to the Rank of this ability. Any undead turned by this ability must also save against Disruption.
The Shepherd may also perform a ceremony which will keep any bodies from ever rising as undead. This takes 1 minute and effects a number of bodies per day equal to the Shepherd's Wisdom modifier x the Rank of this ability.

Shepherd of Retribution
This ability grants the ability to Smite Evil a number of times per day equal to the Rank of the ability. In addition, the Shepherd may turn a Smite into a Greater Smite a number of times per day equal to the Rank of this ability. As a free action, after successfully employing a Smite attack, the Shepherd may announce that they have used a Greater Smite. Any creature hit with the Shepherd's Smite Evil ability must then make a Fortitude save against the damage dealt, or die.

[Sholano]

Okay, a few things.

There are a few other ways to meet the skill prereqs, including a few feats that make skills "always" cross class (Studied, Cosmopolitan) In addition, there is the Adaptor Warrior's Way.

Feats, sure - bleh, using feats on that, especially since (most of the time) no character is going to know they're headed for this class in time to take the feats, but yeah, that works. The Warrior's Way, sadly, not so much. I looked into that. You can get one of the skills, but not both out of just Fighter (unless you're waiting until 11th level). You could take a level or two of Channeler to get the Knowledge and get Diplomacy this way. That would get you there by 7th.

I still think you can do it with 4 levels of fighter and 2 levels of Channeler. It means the class is available at 7th level under Core rules, and 6th if you include one "outside" feat. I'm fine with that.

Yeah, that works (as above). Again, you have to have anticipated it, but such is life.

Divine Grace is taken right out of the standard Paladin abilities. And yes, it's disgusting.

Really, truly awful. Especially considering there are feats (good feats, yet)that do this for one save. No, wait, that just subs your Charisma for your Wisdom. Gods.

Divine Protection scales appropriately. It's about the same as a Defender's progression.

Nonono, you're thinking the first tier ability (which apparently has the same name, now you point it out), which is normal, yeah. I meant the 5th tier one, the Mettle/Evasion combo. On top of Divine Grace, if you have to make a save, pretty much ever, you're fine.

[Doomed Hero]

Gods.Nonono, you're thinking the first tier ability (which apparently has the same name, now you point it out), which is normal, yeah. I meant the 5th tier one, the Mettle/Evasion combo. On top of Divine Grace, if you have to make a save, pretty much ever, you're fine.

Oh, that one. Yeah, that's pretty much what it's supposed to do. The end-game levels of DnD essentially become a game of rocket-tag where Saves nearly replace AC, both sides throw around save-or-die effects and dish out hundreds of points of damage a round.

There are existing builds which combine Paladins with Hexblades and Monks, that are one of the most synergizing hybrid builds out. Even other than the Divine Grace/Mettle/Evasion thing, the classes go nicely together. It seemed appropriate for this class to be able to wade through spells, so I put it in.

[Sholano]

Wow. I was just looking at the Legendary stuff.
Got nothing to say here, really, it's a Legendary class, and therefore supposed to be powerful as all hell. I believe it accompishes this goal nicely.

While I'm thinking about, this, though - you may want to think about some of the "Charisma X Rank" stuff, or at least the idea thereof. Maybe Charisma plus, instead? My brain naturally goes to what the disgusting Charisma monkeys (such as myself, in game) could do with these things. Shepherd of Redemption? Fageddaboudit.
Not necessarily a problem, but something to think about.

...and I want it.

[Gabboge]

I personaly love it. I have to say though that the abilitys that intrest me the most are the light abilitys. I just see them being the most intresting and versitle bolth in and out of combat. I mean case in point, how nice was it for us when I could produce light at will?

[Bihlbo]

This concerns the most recent Paladin class writeup. Overall it's a cool concept but there are some things that need to be changed:

Shepherd's Crook - This needs stats.

Demons - You describe demons in a few places as though they all are in league with Izrador, but this is not accurate to the setting. Some are independant and some serve other powerful outsiders.

Tiers - These serve absolutely no purpose whatsoever. You could do away with the tiers and the class would function the same way. You need to decide what purpose the tier has and describe it. I also strongly recommend using only 3 tiers, 5 is unnecessary.

Prerequisites - Just like in feats and defender/wildlander ability prerequisites, you need to deliniate all requirements, not just the most recent. For example, hand of justice lists prerequisites correctly, while empowered symbol needs to state that divine grace and one other ability is required.

Shepherd's Arm - If it can be taken more than once and the abilities stack, then the way it's worded there's no reason to choose the extra reach option twice, since each time it makes your crook a reach weapon with a set reach range. Instead this needs to state that it adds 5 ft. to the reach of the weapon. I would also note whether this reach is inclusive or not, because if it prevents you from attacking adjacent targets it might not be worth taking.

Disciple of the Lost Gods - This does not state whether the spells are channeled or not.

Blessed Symbol - Is this a Su or Ex ability? For that matter, there are a few others that lack this definition.

Light of Revelation - In D&D 3.5, all cones are 90 degree arcs. Reference: "A cone-shaped spell shoots away from you in a quarter-circle in the direction you designate. It starts from any corner of your square and widens out as it goes. Most cones are either bursts or emanations (see above), and thus won’t go around corners." They do not have a set width at the end of the cone. This ability needs to conform to the standard cone shape.

Spark of Divinity - This ensures that no spells a paladin casts (minimum paladin 4) will ever be detectable by astiraxes or subject to the supression and extra cost of being within a mirror radius. It also causes all magic items made by a paladin to be divine, which means they are also undetectable and cannot be sacrificed to a mirror. This is a massive, unbalacing benefit that is purely broken.

Cleanse - How long is he/she fatigued?

Brilliant - What is the duration and the action required?

Hallowed Presence - The way this is worded a paladin suffers arcane spell failure due to wearing armor. That doesn't seem like your intention.

[Sholano]

Hm. I have some thoughts on those things, but I think I'll wait to see what DH has to say first, since a couple of them are on how I think tihngs were intended to work.

[Doomed Hero]

It's going to take me while before I have the time to sit down and give an in depth response, so go ahead. If there's some ideas bounced around in the mean time it might give me a better idea of how to change things.

[Bihlbo]

I have some thoughts on the tiers issue. Currently they mean nothing. You could stick with that and just have the prerequisites of each ability manage when an ability is gained. Then you don't need tiers. This is the simplest solution but the downside is that to play this class you have to read through every ability just to pick one.

Or, pare the tiers down to 3 and require that in order to have an ability of the next-higher tier you must have two abilities in the lower tier. This means you only get 1 tier 3 ability. Maybe that's not what you're after, but that's a place to start.

What I would do is plot out all abilities and the earliest level at which a character should be able to get it. Determine which abilities should not coexist with other powerful abilities. Then chart out a progression that allows all desired options and base the prerequisites on this.

Based on the lore, I think the paladin would better function as a very generic class, suitable for any character who can get to the Herald. Why wouldn't the Herald choose a barbarian who has a lot to learn about healing? It seems like the entrance requirements for this PrC should be mostly achievement-based and subjective, not based on the build of your character so far. It's not as though it's remotely possible any living being on Aryth knows that becoming a paladin is possible, or something for which they should prepare themselves. It also doesn't seem like it should be closed off to any base class except for the legate. Even given as robust a class as this is, I would cut the prerequisites down to the following: Base Attack Bonus +5; Alignment any Good; Special - Must have been chosen and trained by the Herald, an ancient Celestial.

That last part is the hard part, the rest should just be basically a level requirement (which will be level 5-7). This PrC demands an adventure write-up based on finding and getting to the Herald. That would be pretty rad!

[Doomed Hero]

I have some thoughts on the tiers issue. Currently they mean nothing. You could stick with that and just have the prerequisites of each ability manage when an ability is gained. Then you don't need tiers. This is the simplest solution but the downside is that to play this class you have to read through every ability just to pick one.

I think I'm missing something. Currently, the tiers represent the need to know an ability of a lower tier before you gain access to a higher tier. In most cases the requirement is specific, but in a few abilities, which are powerful but not necessarily sequential, i've reduced the prerequisite to "any tier x ability".

How does this not function as intended?

[Bihlbo]

I think I'm missing something. Currently, the tiers represent the need to know an ability of a lower tier before you gain access to a higher tier. In most cases the requirement is specific, but in a few abilities, which are powerful but not necessarily sequential, i've reduced the prerequisite to "any tier x ability".

Perhaps this was your original intent, but I don't see any prerequisites that mention tiers at all.

How does this not function as intended?

Well, it's not a matter of whether or not it functions; the class functions just fine. But your intent for the tiers is in no way described. Which can be as simple a fix as adding a "Paladin Abilities" entry with a description. But currently without the tiers having any definition, they are redundant.

But please don't think I'm trying to make a big stink about this. It's an editing issue, that's all. There is a precedent for unnecessary tiers in the wildlander traits, where the tier headings also mean nothing at all. I strongly feel they could have done better with this, but only for the sake of making the class easy to understand. It’s balanced just as well either way you go.

But they could have been better. For instance, if you’re a wildlander choosing your first trait, you’re golden because Tier 1 holds your only options, making the selection seem much less overwhelming. But at level 2 with your second trait you’re already in Tier 2, and it’s fully possible that with your third trait you’ve taken one from Tier 3. So the benefit of having the tiers in the first place, that is to make the selection process easier, is virtually negated  by level 5.

If the wildlander traits had no tiers, the selection process would involve reading the prerequisites of each ability to understand what else might be needed. This produces a hassle that is virtually negated by level 5. Neither of these options is fully ideal.

What if instead the tiers served a more specific purpose? Tier 1 abilities are those which have no requirements (as-is). Tier 2 abilities have non-specific requirements which could include any ability (e.g. intercept). Tier 3 abilities all require at least a specific tier 2 ability, paladin level 6, and whatever else seems to fit (e.g. spark of divinity). In this way, those who know they will only dabble in being a paladin can ignore the third tier, those who want a broader skill set can focus on the second tier, and the first tier is for everyone.

No, this isn't necessary for the class to be fun and balanced, but neither is having tiers in the first place. I just want to make the class more slick and nifty!

[TravelingStoryteller]

I really like this, and interesting way of going about the paladin. This is actually be a good place to start when it comes to the 'warrior' side of things when  related to the cleric mimicking the channeller.

[TravelingStoryteller]

Hmm, dang it! Too many good abilities to choose from... I wonder if using a feat to gain an extra paladin ability would be a fair trade off.

What do you think Doomed Hero, would trading a feat to gain another ability be reasonable?

[Doomed Hero]

Most other classes have feats that do similar things. There's an entire string of Extra *whatever* feats, so I'd say yes.

I don't think I'd allow it to be taken more than once though.